# What does "no substitutions" mean on a slow food menu. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 9, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562 "2013-06-09T16:54:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/41 "2013-06-10T14:41:37Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Asking to leave something off isn’t a substitution - it’s an omission. It’s a perfectly reasonable thing to ask, with the understanding that the restaurant may have its reasons to refuse. I understand that - see the part I quoted about “i.e., forcing me to pay for it, even if I don’t eat it”. Asking for something to be omitted is one thing- expecting a discount for it is quite another. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/42 "2013-06-10T14:51:13Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Asking to leave something off isn’t a substitution - it’s an omission. It’s a perfectly reasonable thing to ask, with the understanding that the restaurant may have its reasons to refuse. I understand that - see the part I quoted about “i.e., forcing me to pay for it, even if I don’t eat it”. Asking for something to be omitted is one thing- expecting a discount for it is quite another. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/43 "2013-06-10T14:59:22Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > It’s not, “we know what’s good for you”. It’s, “this is what we’re offering.” It has nothing to do with snobbishness. It’s about showing some respect for other people’s jobs, and about not being a _nudnik_. > > The restaurant prints a menu. The diners pick something from the menu. The restaurant serves the food. The diners pay. \*That’s how the process is supposed to work. \* Maybe we should add this to the list of “ways in which service expectations vary by location”. One of the reasons my group became such big customers with a certain fast food place in Ireland was that they’d let us _remove_ items from their more complex burgers (we still paid the same): none of us had encountered that possibility before. But in most cases I’d find substitutions pretty absurd: what, spaghetti bolognese isn’t good enough, it’s got to be penne bolognese? They may not even have penne! ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/44 "2013-06-10T15:08:33Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > It’s not, “we know what’s good for you”. It’s, “this is what we’re offering.” It has nothing to do with snobbishness. It’s about showing some respect for other people’s jobs, and about not being a _nudnik_. > > The restaurant prints a menu. The diners pick something from the menu. The restaurant serves the food. The diners pay. \*That’s how the process is supposed to work. \* You left off the part where a supposedly professional chef working in a supposedly professional kitchen cooks the food. That is the point at which a reasonable level of customization should be available to the paying customer. Go to a deli at 9am, order an egg sandwich, and you have some customization available: Size - 1, 2 or 3 eggs Egg - Fried hard, over easy, sunny side, scrambled Bread - roll, bagel, long roll, toast (white, rye, wheat) Cheese - none, american, provolone Meat - none, bacon, sausage, ham, Taylor ham (here in NJ) Seasonings - none, salt, pepper Sauces - none, ketchup, hot sauce, mayonnaise, mustard, russian dressing All for 1 stinking little sandwich, and a well run deli will happily make any of these sandwiches without complaining that you aren’t selecting from one of their pre-determined egg sandwich styles. They can manage this at a price of $3-5 because they have a process to manage it. A restaurant that is unable to manage customization is not well run, customers do not necessarily want to eat exactly the meal you designed\*, so you should have the ability to cook and serve meals that your customers want to eat. If baked potatoes are more expensive than french fries, then empower someone to say “Yes, we can substitute, but it is $1 more.” \*exceptions can be made here for restaurants where the purpose is to eat exactly what the head chef designs. This is not the raison d’etre of most eateries. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/45 "2013-06-10T15:20:24Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > If baked potatoes are more expensive than french fries, then empower someone to say “Yes, we can substitute, but it is $1 more.” That is the best of both worlds, but it does open the door to a customer going “Oh, I didn’t see that it cost more, I shouldn’t have to pay” or “well, if you can substitute X for Y, you should be able to substitute Z for Y”. Allowing a sub with a cost increase would be nice, but I can understand why some restaurants don’t want the hassle. ---
**Author:** ![babygoat666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2acd7d/32.png) [@babygoat666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/babygoat666)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/46 "2013-06-10T15:37:27Z")
The “I’m a paying customer” mentality is getting out of control. > [@JuliaSqueezer](#): > > refusing to leave off the 1/2 cup of dressing on my salad (i.e., forcing me to pay for it, even if I don’t eat it) Please tell me you did not honestly try to negotiate a discount on your salad because you asked them to leave the dressing off? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/47 "2013-06-10T15:42:08Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > They can manage this at a price of $3-5 because they have a process to manage it. They can do this because a deli is an assembly line, not a kitchen. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/48 "2013-06-10T15:47:06Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > You left off the part where a supposedly professional chef working in a supposedly professional kitchen cooks the food. That is the point at which a reasonable level of customization should be available to the paying customer. And when the level of customization is available, it is featured on the menu in the form of clearly listed choices and options. If it isn’t on the menu, it isn’t available. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/49 "2013-06-10T15:57:55Z")
I’m wondering what other businesses people expect substitutions from? You can always ask, but what is there to get up in arms about if the grocery store offers sale on a 2 liter bottle of soda and you want the same discount on a 1 liter bottle? What if I wanted the keyed lockset from the hardware store but wanted a different deadbolt, should I expect them to substitute a deadbolt of greater value for the same price? If I go to get a haircut and say I don’t need a shampoo because I just washed my hair should I expect a discount? How about a car dealership where I ask for some different rims at the same price? You can always ask, but I don’t understand anger at being turned down for asking for a special service or product. If you don’t like the choices at a restaurant, or any other business, go somewhere else. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/50 "2013-06-10T16:20:47Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > If I go to get a haircut and say I don’t need a shampoo because I just washed my hair should I expect a discount? Imagine you go to a Barber and he has pictures of hair styles in a chart. You say, can you make the top like Pic#3 and the back like Pic #5, and he points at the bottom of the chart where it says"no substitutions." The service industry encompasses a wide range of offerings, some of which require the ability to customize, and some which do not. When you’re talking about something as personal as a haircut, or food to eat, it makes sense to offer a degree of customization. Other services, like phone service, it doesn’t make sense to offer customization, you have a menu of available services, and customers pick from that. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/51 "2013-06-10T16:30:36Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > A restaurant that is unable to manage customization is not well run, customers do not necessarily want to eat exactly the meal you designed\*, so you should have the ability to cook and serve meals that your customers want to eat. Perhaps these people should try going to restaurants that serve food they do want to eat, rather than throwing a dart at Yelp and then trying to convert the menu into something they like. ---
**Author:** ![babygoat666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2acd7d/32.png) [@babygoat666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/babygoat666)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/52 "2013-06-10T17:10:23Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Imagine you go to a Barber and he has pictures of hair styles in a chart. You say, can you make the top like Pic#3 and the back like Pic #5, and he points at the bottom of the chart where it says"no substitutions." > > The service industry encompasses a wide range of offerings, some of which require the ability to customize, and some which do not. When you’re talking about something as personal as a haircut, or food to eat, it makes sense to offer a degree of customization. Other services, like phone service, it doesn’t make sense to offer customization, you have a menu of available services, and customers pick from that. I know you don’t see it as such, but for some restaurants, this IS the case. Some certain resaurants do aspire to be the kind of place where you can go customize whatever you want, and they are very up front about it. To use your barber analogy, imagine that the barber can only perform the “back of Pic #5” a finite amount of times per day, and he is going to use them all for the people who order #5. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/53 "2013-06-10T17:29:36Z")
I may not return to a restaurant that had “No Substitutions” but not because I think they are being rude or in any way unreasonable, or that restaurants have an inherent responsibility to allow substitutions. but because I like having options. But there is many different ways to run a restaurant, and given the prevalence of “No substitutions” it seems this is hardly a restaurant killing policy. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/54 "2013-06-10T18:09:05Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Perhaps these people should try going to restaurants that serve food they do want to eat, rather than throwing a dart at Yelp and then trying to convert the menu into something they like. Exactly. If that’s the restaurant’s business model, and it works for them, what’s the problem? Go to a restaurant that gives you what you want. Maybe their business model is saving them time and money; maybe it’s losing them customers. If they’re a good business, they know and they choose to do what they do and how they want to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/55 "2013-06-10T18:48:13Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Exactly. If that’s the restaurant’s business model, and it works for them, what’s the problem? Go to a restaurant that gives you what you want. Maybe their business model is saving them time and money; maybe it’s losing them customers. If they’re a good business, they know and they choose to do what they do and how they want to do it. It has been my experience that the more a business tries to be all things to all people the less focused they are on their actual core product. My car example was a case in point and this was brought up in business classes when I was in school. Ford would make a car where everything on it was an option. When you start doing the math it’s easy to see where efficiency is lost in production. Each Ford car would consist of thousands of permutations that had to be addressed on the assembly line. Honda would have a small number of group options that people wanted and would do them in mass batches. This is now the norm for all cars. You’ll have a handful of group options followed by color choices. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/56 "2013-06-10T19:20:52Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It has been my experience that the more a business tries to be all things to all people the less focused they are on their actual core product. You will have no argument from me. Too many options, for me, is often a bad sign, unless it’s some up-market, custom-built sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/57 "2013-06-10T21:02:21Z")
Ludovic: > [@](#): > > The funny thing is McDonald’s for a long time was known for no substitutions on their burgers. Is this why Burger King made a point of “Having it your way” in one of their better-known ad campaigns? (I’ve never patronized McDonalds, so I didn’t have this first-hand knowledge.) ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/58 "2013-06-10T21:32:19Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Exactly. If that’s the restaurant’s business model, and it works for them, what’s the problem? I’m allowed to think that someone’s business model sucks. I get that unlimited substitution is restaurant based anarchy, and there needs to be some structure behind your menu. However, handwringing over serving a baked potato instead of french fries just boggles the mind. ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/59 "2013-06-10T21:56:35Z")
If I’m eating at a dive or a chain, I’ll get substitutions. I always offer to pay extra up front. But if I’m eating somewhere high end, where the entrees are $20 or more, I would not deign to tell the chef how to prepare his food. I am willing to pay to try it the way it’s intended to be. That’s the point of going. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/60 "2013-06-10T23:48:40Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I get that unlimited substitution is restaurant based anarchy, and there needs to be some structure behind your menu. However, handwringing over serving a baked potato instead of french fries just boggles the mind. I thought other posters gave a reasonable explanation why a restaurant might have trouble sustituting a baked potato for fries: > [@TriPolar](#): > > You may not realize it, but a baked potato usually costs more than french fries. The fries will come in frozen, and are mass produced out by the farm. There’s virtually no spoilage and the demand is enormous. A restaurant owner will pay more for baked potatos which have to be sorted by size, selected for appearance and lack of blemishes, and then have to be cooked ahead of time unless you want to wait an hour for your meal. Potatoes can go bad, before or after they are cooked, and there can be a lot of loss involved. > [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > Potatoes don’t bake in the 10 minutes you expect to wait for your food. They take an hour. If a lot of people sub out the potato for the fries, the restaurant is going to throw away a lot of baked potatoes, which represents them throwing away money. IMHO, it’s not unreasonable to ask to substitute a baked potato for fries, but it is unreasonable to insist. Unless I missed it, no one yet in this thread has offered a _specific_ example of a situation where a specific restaurant has a “no substitutions” policy. As long as it’s purely hypothetical, we can’t say whether such a policy is reasonable or not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562.md?page=4)