# What does "no substitutions" mean on a slow food menu. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 9, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562 "2013-06-09T16:54:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/61 "2013-06-10T23:55:23Z")
> [@Rysler](#): > > But if I’m eating somewhere high end, where the entrees are $20 or more, I would not deign to tell the chef how to prepare his food. I am willing to pay to try it the way it’s intended to be. That’s the point of going. Exactly. I had this driven home to me one trip to Vegas. We were eating breakfast at Terrace Point Cafe (at Wynn) and I saw “Pulled Pork Benedict” on the menu. Now, I can’t abide runny yolks at all. Hate them with a passion. All eggs must be damn-near vulcanized for me to like them. So I asked the waiter if I could get the eggs on the Benedict scrambled instead. He assured me there would be no problem. When they came out of the kitchen (delivered by another waiter) the eggs were poached. I almost sent it back, but my hunger made me buckle down and just mix the yolks into the pork. Best breakfast I’ve ever had. Our original waiter about shit a brick when he saw that my request hadn’t been fulfilled, but I assured him it was no problem. The chef was right - that dish wouldn’t have been the same with scrambled. (I’m sure it was just a slip-up in the kitchen. Wynn is very good about giving you what you want, even if it is the wrong thing.) ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/62 "2013-06-11T00:38:19Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > The funny thing is McDonald’s for a long time was known for no substitutions on their burgers. If they even let you customize your burger at all it would take a while longer than a burger with whatever the standard toppings were. They wouldn’t let you add anything, but they certainly let you delete things. Until chicken mcnuggets came along my usual order as a kid was hamburger, plain. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/63 "2013-06-11T02:48:21Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Ludovic: > > Is this why Burger King made a point of “Having it your way” in one of their better-known ad campaigns? > > (I’ve never patronized McDonalds, so I didn’t have this first-hand knowledge.) As far as I remember, yes, that is where the “have it your way” thing started. At least that’s how I remember it. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/64 "2013-06-11T02:54:12Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I’m allowed to think that someone’s business model sucks. You are. But you don’t know the numbers behind the business. Their business model may very well be better than yours. If this is a successful restaurant that’s been in business for many years and not hurting for customers, I assume they know full well what they’re doing. At any rate, reasonable reasons were given in this thread for not substituting baked potatoes for French fries. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/65 "2013-06-11T06:56:56Z")
> [@JuliaSqueezer](#): > > OK. I guess I don’t get it. A cook refusing to leave off the 1/2 cup of dressing on my salad (i.e., forcing me to pay for it, even if I don’t eat it) is entitlement? Or not entitlement? Yes. > [@](#): > > Refusing to give me a baked potato (already on the menu, for other entrees) instead of french fries? Just because something is on the menu elsewhere doesn’t mean it makes economic sense to allow you to substitute it on a lesser entree. A place I go offers hamburger baskets (burger, fries, pickle) and they also offer steak dinners. Should I be able to order the hamburger basket and substitute steak for the burger? It’s already on the menu. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/66 "2013-06-11T06:58:18Z")
> [@JuliaSqueezer](#): > > OK. I guess I don’t get it. A cook refusing to leave off the 1/2 cup of dressing on my salad (i.e., forcing me to pay for it, even if I don’t eat it) is entitlement? Yes. > [@](#): > > Refusing to give me a baked potato (already on the menu, for other entrees) instead of french fries? Just because something is on the menu elsewhere doesn’t mean it makes economic sense to allow you to substitute it on a lesser entree. A place I go offers hamburger baskets (burger, fries, pickle) and they also offer steak dinners. Should I be able to order the hamburger basket and substitute steak for the burger? It’s already on the menu. ---
**Author:** ![RebeccaZager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/87869e/32.png) [@RebeccaZager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RebeccaZager)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/67 "2013-06-11T11:41:54Z")
no substitution means no modification in the dish.it have some negative effect on coming guest. So Instead of saying no, offer a list of possible substitutions from which guest may choose.In some cases, substitutions may be an opportunity for additional revenue. ---
**Author:** ![JuliaSqueezer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/82dd89/32.png) [@JuliaSqueezer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JuliaSqueezer)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/68 "2013-06-11T13:59:00Z")
> [@babygoat666](#): > > The “I’m a paying customer” mentality is getting out of control. > > Please tell me you did not honestly try to negotiate a discount on your salad because you asked them to leave the dressing off? Of course not. Nowhere in my post did I imply this. I was remiss, I admit, in not clarifying that I requested dressing on the side because this particular, upscale place, was convinced they have the best salad dressing in the city, and they glurped massive amounts on the salad, drowning the green stuff. They refused my request. I did not eat the salad. I did not request a refund or any reduction at all in my check. I just never went back. The restaurant did close soon thereafter, having nothing to do with my salad preference or my failure to return. I stayed away from this thread after seeing some of the responses. I get that running a restaurant is hard. I do. I understand the economics of it all is daunting. But the sad fact that some responses reflect a failure to consider a basic tenet of business: we, your potential customers, don’t need you to survive. You need US to survive. That’s apparently a tough pill for some to swallow. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/69 "2013-06-11T14:39:46Z")
> [@Rysler](#): > > But if I’m eating somewhere high end, where the entrees are $20 or more, I would not deign to tell the chef how to prepare his food. I am willing to pay to try it the way it’s intended to be. That’s the point of going. I agree, with one minor change. A $20 entree is most definitely not the dividing line between everyday and “high end”- generally speaking, “high end” places have entrees in the $40-50 range, with sides a-la-carte, Somewhere like [this (just to pick a local place I happen to like)](http://www.chamberlainssteakhouse.com/menu.html), or even more expensive ones like the French Laundry or Alinea. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/70 "2013-06-11T14:59:16Z")
> [@JuliaSqueezer](#): > > Of course not. Nowhere in my post did I imply this. I was remiss, I admit, in not clarifying that I requested dressing on the side because this particular, upscale place, was convinced they have the best salad dressing in the city, and they glurped massive amounts on the salad, drowning the green stuff. They refused my request. I did not eat the salad. I did not request a refund or any reduction at all in my check. I just never went back. The restaurant did close soon thereafter, having nothing to do with my salad preference or my failure to return. I’d be rubbed the wrong way given your experience, as well. (And no salad should be drowning in dressing, anyway, IMHO. I also tend to be an “on the side” person for salads unless I’m at a place that I trust not to fuck it up by making the salad just a vehicle for dressing.) > [@](#): > > I stayed away from this thread after seeing some of the responses. I get that running a restaurant is hard. I do. I understand the economics of it all is daunting. But the sad fact that some responses reflect a failure to consider a basic tenet of business: we, your potential customers, don’t need you to survive. You need US to survive. That’s apparently a tough pill for some to swallow. I don’t see anyone thinking this is a tough pill to swallow. It’s self-evident that businesses need customers. But customers often don’t know the economics of the business and what works best for a particular business model. ---
**Author:** ![eenerms](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cdc98d/32.png) [@eenerms](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eenerms)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/71 "2013-06-11T15:18:18Z")
I just ate at a place that had specials with specific sauces . One of the sauces was cilantro and red pepper sauce. (Insert gagging here) I asked for a different sauce that they offered on the menu. It wasn’t a problem. I do ask for substitutes, and things on the side. Always politely .Never had a problem. The substitutions are on the menu. its not like I’m asking for Chinese food in an Italian restaurant. When we expats or traveling, I haven’t had any problem. I’ve seen more menus asking if you have allergies etc. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/72 "2013-06-11T15:39:49Z")
> [@JuliaSqueezer](#): > > I stayed away from this thread after seeing some of the responses. I get that running a restaurant is hard. I do. I understand the economics of it all is daunting. But the sad fact that some responses reflect a failure to consider a basic tenet of business: **we, your potential customers, don’t need you to survive. You need US to survive.** That’s apparently a tough pill for some to swallow. (bolding mine) Nope. We only need _some_ of you to survive. We benefit from losing the business of those of you who are more trouble than your worth or actually _cost_ us money. When you decide not to come back that does just the opposite of hurt us. ---
**Author:** ![D.E.S.K.Top668](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f07891/32.png) [@D.E.S.K.Top668](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D.E.S.K.Top668)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/73 "2013-06-11T15:42:39Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > You left off the part where a supposedly professional chef working in a supposedly professional kitchen cooks the food. That is the point at which a reasonable level of customization should be available to the paying customer. In many restaurants, especially at the more expensive end, the odds are that a professional chef isn’t cooking your food. The chef might not even be in that night. Most of the cooking is done by line cooks, who were taught to cook each dish a certain way by the chef (following his “vision” of the dish.) Unlike a good chef, who understands the theories and practices of cooking, a good line cook might just know how to make each dish one way. Getting a substitution within a dish (penne instead of linguine) wouldn’t be possible because the person doesn’t know how to make it that way. Even if the chef is in, he’s probably expediting orders and overseeing the staff while also running a station with no time to stop cooking 8 other orders to make one from scratch. As for substituting an entire dish within a meal, it not uncommon for chefs to build the entire meal based an complementary flavors, each dish being just one component of the experience. You can’t get the baked potato instead of fries with the fish (for example) because their baked potatoes are seasoned to go with the pepper steak and would overwhelm the fish. Of course, the above is just a couple of possibilities. DESK ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/74 "2013-06-11T15:47:01Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > (bolding mine) > > Nope. We only need _some_ of you to survive. We benefit from losing the business of those of you who are more trouble than your worth or actually _cost_ us money. When you decide not to come back that does just the opposite of hurt us. That’s it right there. Resturants do want return customers, but once the seats are filled the special requests add to the costs. OTOH if you’re not filling your seats a strict no substitution policy isn’t going to help fill them. Running a restaurant is a juggling act. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/75 "2013-06-11T16:15:31Z")
> [@White SIFL](#): > > Yes. > Just because something is on the menu elsewhere doesn’t mean it makes economic sense to allow you to substitute it on a lesser entree. A place I go offers hamburger baskets (burger, fries, pickle) and they also offer steak dinners. Should I be able to order the hamburger basket and substitute steak for the burger? It’s already on the menu. There are reasonable substitutions and unreasonable substitutions. Substituting a steak for a hamburger is unreasonable on its face. What would you say if I ordered the Steak and Baked Potato entree, but wanted fries instead? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/76 "2013-06-11T16:27:25Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > There are reasonable substitutions and unreasonable substitutions. Substituting a steak for a hamburger is unreasonable on its face. What would you say if I ordered the Steak and Baked Potato entree, but wanted fries instead? _Most_ times, that would be fine. But if you’re in a restaurant that doesn’t have a fryer, or is out of fries; or if the management is running a “Steak and Baked Potato Special” to try to use up their surplus potatoes… ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/77 "2013-06-11T16:57:21Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > The funny thing is McDonald’s for a long time was known for no substitutions on their burgers. That kept me away from McDonalds for many years, given that I don’t like relish.[Times are a changin’:](http://www.businessinsider.com/ordering-tricks-at-restaurants-2012-9?op=1) > [@](#): > > “Get a McDouble without ketchup and mustard. Instead, ask for lettuce and big mac sauce on it. You have an almost-Big Mac for $1.39,” an employee writes. I wonder what McDonald`s response to this sort of nonsense is, when the substitution is not based on taste but is instead based on trying to get around price points? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/78 "2013-06-11T17:12:25Z")
> [@D.E.S.K.Top668](#): > > In many restaurants, especially at the more expensive end, the odds are that a professional chef isn’t cooking your food. The chef might not even be in that night. Most of the cooking is done by line cooks, who were taught to cook each dish a certain way by the chef (following his “vision” of the dish.) Unlike a good chef, who understands the theories and practices of cooking, a good line cook might just know how to make each dish one way. Getting a substitution within a dish (penne instead of linguine) wouldn’t be possible because the person doesn’t know how to make it that way. > Even if the chef is in, he’s probably expediting orders and overseeing the staff while also running a station with no time to stop cooking 8 other orders to make one from scratch. > As for substituting an entire dish within a meal, it not uncommon for chefs to build the entire meal based an complementary flavors, each dish being just one component of the experience. You can’t get the baked potato instead of fries with the fish (for example) because their baked potatoes are seasoned to go with the pepper steak and would overwhelm the fish. > Of course, the above is just a couple of possibilities. > > DESK That works very well for assembly line hotel and large restaurant food – very utilitarian – the best way to get suburb results for the greatest number of people. For fine dining at smaller restaurants, I`ve found that chefs usually are more than willing to make reasonable substitutes with advance notice, and if time is available are quite happy to discuss selections and techniques and to tour kitchens. It`s really just a matter of practicality and keeping things in balance. For every Mad Swedish Chef or Soup Nazi out there, there are a lot of talented chefs who very much appreciate patrons who take an interest in what they do and are quite happy to work with the diner to customize a meal to meet the chef`s creativity and the diner`s tastes. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/79 "2013-06-11T17:22:13Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > That kept me away from McDonalds for many years, given that I don’t like relish.[Times are a changin’:](http://www.businessinsider.com/ordering-tricks-at-restaurants-2012-9?op=1)I wonder what McDonald`s response to this sort of nonsense is, when the substitution is not based on taste but is instead based on trying to get around price points? When I worked at Arby’s, it had to be at least one ingredient different. So, you couldn’t order a roast beef on an onion bun with cheese and red sauce because that’s a beef n cheddar, but you could get a roast beef with cheese and red sauce on a regular bun or a roast beef on an onion bun with cheese. ---
**Author:** ![Drum\_God](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drum_god/32/44_2.png) [@Drum\_God](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drum_God)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/80 "2013-06-11T17:34:08Z")
Just to join some of the other anecdotes in this thread, my wife and I at the Saltgrass on the RiverWalk in San Antonio. My wife cannot eat fish – she has a severe allergic reaction if she has fish or anything that has come into contact with fish oils. Well, that evening at Saltgrass, she really wanted the grilled shrimp. As we always do, she asked to be sure that the shrimp was not grilled on the same surface as the grilled fish. If it was, she would make another choice. The waitperson checked with the kitchen and came back to tell us that the fish and shrimp are, in fact, grilled on the same surface. However, the cook offered to stop, brick the grill, clean in thoroughly, and grill the shrimp. Were we willing to wait? We did wait, had a wonderful dinner, and I left an appropriate tip. As a result, I will always go to that Saltgrass when in the area and looking for that sort of meal. I am also favorably disposed to other Saltrgrass locations. To me, that was a special order that the restaurant would have been well within its rights to refuse, but made it work for us. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562.md?page=5)