# What does "no substitutions" mean on a slow food menu. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 9, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562 "2013-06-09T16:54:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![hkepotat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hkepotat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hkepotat)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/101 "2013-06-12T13:25:40Z")
Certainly may vary from place to place, but most of the “No Substitutions” I have seen or dealt with were specifically for promotional items. A part of the menu with either discounted items, or express order items. If I price a menu item, I either have to price it with the average product mix of what the customers may order, built in with a small premium to cover extra inventory and spoilage, or I can specify how it is made, and charge a lower price. A BBQ Rib platter that comes with fries and coleslaw does not mean that you can get a baked potato and vegetable of the day as substitutes for the sides. They cost more. Lunch Menus with a 15 minute guarantee can only function because of the streamlining of no substitutions. Even just “leaving something off” in some circumstances may cause things to slow down unacceptably for the Lunch crowd. My policy has always been, you want 15 minutes, you and everyone in your party order off the 15 minute menu with no substitutions. Reasonable requests for leaving things off can be accommodated, but often recipe ingredients are already premixed and ready to be cooked. In order to just take something out would essentially be starting from scratch and completely defeating the point of the quick service menu. If you want substitutes or something else, that’s fine, but I won’t guarantee it in 15 minutes. Very few “slow food” restaurants are going to have a no subs policy covering the entire menu. I often hear stories from friends or online about how the “successfully” managed to essentially scam a restaurant by abusing it’s substitution policy to get the equivalent of a higher priced menu item. They are proud of it, and seem to encourage others to join in on the fun. How should restaurants respond to that? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/102 "2013-06-12T13:37:39Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > You eat at a laundry? So, how do the socks taste? Probably pretty good if Thomas Keller prepares them. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/103 "2013-06-12T15:01:49Z")
> [@NeonMadman](#): > > The bottom line is that a restaurant owner has the right to run his business any way he sees fit. But if the customers find his policies too confining, and there are other restaurants in the area that offer more flexibility, he won’t get enough business to stay open. That’s just the way the market works. Yes, we understand basic market economics. You think the business doesn’t know that not allowing substitutions may cause some customers to go away? If they’re well run, as has been said, it’s a calculated choice they make. And, no, of course you shouldn’t care if a restaurant goes out of business, but they also shouldn’t care too much about how _you_ think the business should be run if they’re filling up seats and saving time and money with their “no substitutions” policy. (The latter being a key point.) ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/104 "2013-06-12T15:59:26Z")
hkepotat: > [@](#): > > I often hear stories from friends or online about how the “successfully” managed to essentially scam a restaurant by abusing it’s substitution policy to get the equivalent of a higher priced menu item. They are proud of it, and seem to encourage others to join in on the fun. How should restaurants respond to that? By allowing substitutions only on similarly-priced sides and/or charging the customer for the difference in substituted items? ---
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/105 "2013-06-12T16:08:08Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The French Laundry is one of the world’s more famous restaurants. Never heard of it. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/106 "2013-06-12T16:26:13Z")
> [@Kimballkid](#): > > Never heard of it. While I do believe you, it doesn’t change the fact that it is a world renowned restaurant, one of the most well-known ones like the Fat Duck, elBulli, Per Se, Noma, etc. Of course, if you’re not interested in that type of dining (and most people aren’t), you probably won’t know about it. But if you have any interest in fine dining or have an avid interest in food in general, it’s a name you’re likely to have come across. (And, no, I’ve never dined at any of the above places, as I’m generally not a fine dining type of guy, but I would love to have a meal at any of them.) ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/107 "2013-06-12T16:35:20Z")
Keller is truly a wonderful chef. I’ve never made it to The French Laundry, but I’ve eaten at [Bouchon](http://bouchonbistro.com/lv-menu). Well worth the money. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/108 "2013-06-12T17:39:12Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I think most of us are accustomed to being able to get whatever topping we want on a pizza. There’s a local place I go to that has a bunch of specialty pizzas like chicken honey mustard, taco, baked potato, etc. and it’d be a bit silly to try substitutions on them. But for a pizza called the 4-Topper? Oh, no doubt - the name was poorly-chosen. But it was being sold just like it was one of the other pre-designed combos on the menu — “This pizza combo has these four toppings”. I don’t know how it was handled at other stores, but our manager settled on allowing customers to substitute one of the meats and one of the vegetables. It was trying to completely replace _every_ topping that he wouldn’t allow. ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/109 "2013-06-12T19:21:47Z")
I’m still on the pro-(reasonable) substitution side, but I would make an exception for things like Thisist cooking where every dish is carefully, mathematically balanced between flavors, and if a substitution is even possible it requires recalculating the whole thing. Not that I’m going to be eating at such restaurants very often. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/110 "2013-06-12T19:26:17Z")
Thisist cooking? I’m assuming that’s a typo of some sort, but I can’t figure it out. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/111 "2013-06-12T19:31:04Z")
> [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](#): > > I’m still on the pro-(reasonable) substitution side, but I would make an exception for things like Thisist cooking where every dish is carefully, mathematically balanced between flavors, and if a substitution is even possible it requires recalculating the whole thing. > > Not that I’m going to be eating at such restaurants very often. “Thisist” as in in the school of Herve This, or something different? Just curious, since I haven’t heard that term before. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/112 "2013-06-12T19:32:23Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I think most of us are accustomed to being able to get whatever topping we want on a pizza. There’s a local place I go to that has a bunch of specialty pizzas like chicken honey mustard, taco, baked potato, etc. and it’d be a bit silly to try substitutions on them. But for a pizza called the 4-Topper? That’s largely a nomenclature problem - “4-Topper” is generic enough it sounds like it could mean “any 4 toppings” rather than “_this set_ of 4 toppings”. If they had called it the “Manager’s Special”, that problem would have been greatly reduced. > [@NeonMadman](#): > > It’s not that people feel “entitled.” Nobody is asking for a handout. I’m willing to pay if I request a change to the menu that is more expensive for the restaurant to provide We’ve seen examples in this thread of people asking for a handout, trying to substitute more expensive items. There are a variety of situations and a variety of responses. Sometimes people just want to remove an item they don’t want and maybe get an additional item they do want. These people are willing to pay a reasonable price adjustment. Some percentage of people are trying to creatively scam the restaurant to giving them a more expensive menu item at a lower cost. Some very small percentage of people don’t understand how different menu items may actually cost a different amount and thus necessitate an upcharge ( **BigT** and his assurance that fries cost the same or more than a baked potato, for instance). They get incensed at the idea that there might be a surcharge to swap out the fries with sauteed mushrooms. Where I have been mildly confused is a store that offers a Ham and Swiss sandwich and a Turkey and Cheddar sandwich for the same price, but if I want a Turkey and Swiss sandwich, they want to upcharge me because they have a Turkey Ranch and Swiss sandwich on their menu. But I don’t want the Ranch. I can’t tell why one type of cheese makes that kind of difference, when other places will give you your choice of cheese for the same price. But I don’t argue with them. I either decide I will pay the upcharge or I decide I’ll take my sandwich with the offered cheese or I don’t eat there. > [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > What I really dislike is inconsistency in the policies of the same restaurant. > > … Once, during the off-season, I went in and ordered an omelet and asked them to hold the side of hash browns … > > Now this place cares about presentation, so the waiter comes out after giving the chef my order and asks me if I would like a sliced tomato on the plate to replace the potatoes. That sounded fabulous so I said yes. > > I return during a somewhat busier time and order the omelet with a sliced tomato instead of the potatoes… > > On a third occasion when I ordered the breakfast with a side of tomatoes, they prepared a beautiful small plate with both sliced cherry tomatoes topped with chopped scallions and grilled tomatoes with basil, but they charged extra. Seems to me the reason for the different response is right there. You ordered something different each time. The first time, the tomatoes were a gift from the chef. The second time, you made an additional request not part of the omelet platter. The third time, you gave a similar but unspecific request that got interpreted more creatively and charged according to the interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/113 "2013-06-12T21:59:36Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > And although there are restaurants which allow you to choose from a selection , i.e. " All entrees served with a choice of baked potato, frernch fries, rice…", those restaurants have built the cost of offering the choice into the price of the entree. Right, which “slow” or “foodie” places do not. These are the types of places that specialize in small menus with high quality/seasonal ingredients and often will run out of certain items during the course of a busy dinner service because they want to guarantee freshness. These places also get deliveries from local farms and producers almost every day but order in much smaller quantities than your average chain joint that gets a Sysco 18 wheeler pulling up to their loading dock three times a week with pre-processed, pre-portioned items. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/114 "2013-06-12T23:16:42Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > It’s similar to how there are no good restaurants that don’t offer free refills on fountain drinks. Have…have you ever actually _been_ to a restaurant where they don’t ask you “Do you want fries with that?” I’ve been to literally hundreds of world-class places, including a couple of actual 5-Star restaurants that don’t offer free refills on sody-pop. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/115 "2013-06-12T23:28:43Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > I’ve been to literally hundreds of world-class places “World class” must be a pretty big category. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/116 "2013-06-12T23:38:41Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > And a baked potato is much cheaper than fries, by a long shot. We’re not some idiots who don’t buy food. Potatoes themselves are dirt cheap. And if you serve fries, you will serve more than the average sized baked potato. So even if you make your own fries (which almost no restaurant does), it’s not reasonable. You…have you ever heard of things like “cost of labor”, “overhead”, “loss” etc? Fresh potatoes (needed for baked potatoes) spoil. They take longer to cook and need to be prepared in advance (serving reheated frozen baked potatoes is something even Denny’s won’t do). The quickest way to make a decent (not great) baked potato is to A) wash it, B) poke holes in it, C) microwave it for about 10 minutes, D) take it out and rub the skin with veggie oil and salt and E) Bake it for about 30 more minutes. Minimum 40 minutes for a baked potato that’ll be “good…not great, but good”. And since you have to prepare them in advance, some will be left-over. You might (depending on your menu) be able to repuropse them (mashed potatoes, potato skins, etc) but you also might not. At least some will go to waste. Fries? You take your precut frozen fries, drop 'em in hot oil, let them cook a bit (5 min? I don’t remember). Take them out for a few minutes and then refry them again for another few minutes. Drain/salt/serve. 8 minutes, tops, from frozen. They’ll be good fries. And near zero waste from cooking too many. Also nearly no labor or cooking time. This was a stunningly ignorant post, shocking in it’s utter…disconnect…at how things work in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/117 "2013-06-12T23:39:41Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > “World class” must be a pretty big category. Ok–fair enough. I got carried away. How about “hundreds of high-end AND good places” I’ve been to maybe 10 world class places. 😉 The basic point still stands. When you go into “Blue” or “The French Laundry”, a key selling point is not “Bottomless refills on your Mr. Pibb”. I have no idea if they do provide free refills, but even if they don’t, it wouldn’t make them a bad restaurant as BigT claimed. ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/118 "2013-06-12T23:51:55Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > What I really dislike is inconsistency in the policies of the same restaurant. > > Once, during the off-season > > I return during a somewhat busier time > > On a third occasion when I ordered the breakfast Not to mention this. Almost any restaurant is going to be more willing to accommodate oddball requests when they’re slow. Sometimes they even get creative with it, when they’ve got time. I’ve got places I go regularly that are perfectly willing to fill my odd requests, but I don’t generally ask for complicated, customized orders when they’re busy. It’s called common courtesy. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/119 "2013-06-13T00:41:05Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > We’re not some idiots who don’t buy food. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562/120 "2013-06-13T01:11:59Z")
You know, just when I was thinking I’d like to open another restaurant some day, this thread comes along and reminds me not to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-on-a-slow-food-menu/660562.md?page=7)