# What does "No Substitutions" mean to you? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 12, 2019, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-to-you/843347 "2019-11-12T20:07:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-to-you/843347/41 "2019-11-13T08:46:14Z")
I always run into this problem on apps for fast food restaurants where you can order ahead. You’ll get into weird scenarios where you can add or substitute anything you want on the normal burger but suddenly when you try to do the same for a “specialty” burger you can’t despite the fact if you order in person you can. I think it was the Big Mac at McDonald’s I couldn’t remove onions on on the app but I do it all the time in real life at the store. ---
**Author:** ![yendis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ed8c4c/32.png) [@yendis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yendis)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-to-you/843347/42 "2019-11-13T12:17:33Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Surely, then, you can provide an example of “no alterations” on a menu in real life? Here you go, [“no alterations”](https://en.mogaznews.com/collection/1161229/This-Sydney-venues-no-alterations-menu-policy-has-caused-quite-a-stir-.html). Apologies for the epically awful page in that link but its the first thing I found in a minute of googling and I can’t be arsed to do more to satisfy **D’Anconia**. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-to-you/843347/43 "2019-11-13T12:57:43Z")
[Here’s one from a place in New York (Karakatta)](https://s3-media0.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/cerOiQ-E8GRYes_OlXOdsA/o.jpg). Note the bottom: “No Alterations To Menu.” [Here’s a place in Washington](https://silversandstavern.com/menu/). ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-to-you/843347/44 "2019-11-13T13:33:11Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Substitutions are the same thing as changes. Substitutions, imho, are swaps- exchanging one item for another. > > No substitutions means you can leave something out, but you can’t replace a side dish or recipe element with something else. For a sandwich asking for no cheese is fine, but replacing cheese with bacon is not. Well taken that way additions would also be allowed, as there is no swapping. However both fail because you are substituting one item (cheeseburger) for another (hamburger) in your example. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-to-you/843347/45 "2019-11-13T13:53:06Z")
You can’t \*substitute \*anything - that is, ask for something _instead of_ what’s on the menu, or described to you verbally by the waitron. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-to-you/843347/46 "2019-11-13T23:57:20Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Well taken that way additions would also be allowed, as there is no swapping. > > However both fail because you are substituting one item (cheeseburger) for another (hamburger) in your example. Well, I didn’t say cheeseburger I said sandwich, and I think we’re looking for a heuristic here, not a epistemology. Anyway, I will stand by that in my experiences no substitutions means you can substitute one dish element for another. Leaving off something (unless it’s premise or prepackaged) is rarely an issue. Additions are another beast all together, because you run the risk of adding to the cost without expecting a change in price. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-to-you/843347/47 "2019-11-14T00:14:13Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Well, I didn’t say cheeseburger I said sandwich, and I think we’re looking for a heuristic here, not a epistemology. > > Anyway, I will stand by that in my experiences no substitutions means you **can** substitute one dish element for another. Leaving off something (unless it’s premise or prepackaged) is rarely an issue. Additions are another beast all together, because you run the risk of adding to the cost without expecting a change in price. Of course, I meant **can’t** (bolding mine). ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-to-you/843347/48 "2019-11-14T00:49:12Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > [Here’s one from a place in New York (Karakatta)](https://s3-media0.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/cerOiQ-E8GRYes_OlXOdsA/o.jpg). Note the bottom: “No Alterations To Menu.” [Here’s a place in Washington](https://silversandstavern.com/menu/). So a Japanese restaurant in NYC, and a restaurant menu in Australia (which appears to only apply to the “Pizza Bar” section of the menu). And **yendis** added another restaurant in Australia. OK :dubious: I maintain that “no alterations” is NOT at all common on U.S. menus. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-to-you/843347/49 "2019-11-14T01:15:02Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > So a Japanese restaurant in NYC, and a restaurant menu in Australia (which appears to only apply to the “Pizza Bar” section of the menu). > > And **yendis** added another restaurant in Australia. > > OK :dubious: > > I maintain that “no alterations” is NOT at all common on U.S. menus. YMMV. Heres another- although it doesn’t actually say “alterations” , it does say “modifications” . [https://www.caesars.com/content/dam/atl/Dining/Upscale/Martorano/2019/martoranos-dinner-november2019.pdf](https://www.caesars.com/content/dam/atl/Dining/Upscale/Martorano/2019/martoranos-dinner-november2019.pdf) I suspect how common it is depends greatly on the type of restaurant. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-to-you/843347/50 "2019-11-14T02:47:09Z")
I believe it should be choice #2. But as with others I voted #1, because I’ve run into that situation far too often not to assume that’s the default. In particular one of my favorite pizza places. Even cooking to order they will not delete a thing - if you don’t want their perfect vision of pizza you can just go somewhere else. Since they’re never hurting for business they really don’t fucking care you don’t want any garlic oil ;). ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-to-you/843347/51 "2019-11-14T03:03:58Z")
You know, “no alterations” was apparently common enough for Burger King to run that whole “Your way, right away” campaign. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-to-you/843347/52 "2019-11-14T03:12:03Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > So a Japanese restaurant in NYC, and a restaurant menu in Australia (which appears to only apply to the “Pizza Bar” section of the menu). > > And **yendis** added another restaurant in Australia. > > OK :dubious: > > I maintain that “no alterations” is NOT at all common on U.S. menus. YMMV. I can’t speak as to how common it is, but I’ve certainly seen it on menus. Sometimes as “no alterations or substitutions.” But your request was simply to show you a menu with it. Most restaurants do not have menu images online, so I can only provide you with what a simple Google search can find. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-to-you/843347/53 "2019-11-14T03:20:06Z")
[Here’s one place I have actually seen it, though while it was in New York](https://www.foodnut.com/i/Una-Pizza-Napoletana-San-Francisco/Una-Pizza-Napoletana-San-Francisco-pizza-menu.jpg). It’s Una Pizza Napoletana (which is now back in New York. One of my favorite pizza places ever.) And it uses the phrase I remembered seeing on menus, though reversed and in the singular: “No substitution or alteration.” ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-to-you/843347/54 "2019-11-14T03:42:46Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I can’t speak as to how common it is, but I’ve certainly seen it on menus. Sometimes as “no alterations or substitutions.” But your request was simply to show you a menu with it. Most restaurants do not have menu images online, so I can only provide you with what a simple Google search can find. From 2012 [Have it THEIR way: More eateries say ‘no substitutions’](https://www.today.com/food/have-it-their-way-more-eateries-say-no-substitutions-961445) > [@](#): > > While Shopsin wrote those words 4 years ago, the strict rules around ordering are still in place and have remained constant at Shopsin’s since it opened at its first location nearly 40 years ago. And for good reason: Though the restaurant has a cramped kitchen, there are 900 items on its menu. The mantra “the customer is always right” holds no sway here. > > But Shopsin is far from the only chef with an inflexible “no substitutions or alterations” policy. **Strict warnings have been cropping up on menus around the country over the past decade** , and the trend shows no sign of slowing down as chefs at both upscale and casual restaurants follow suit. Not really all that new. From 2011 [When Restaurants Refuse Substitutions](https://www.chowhound.com/food-news/84285/when-restaurants-refuse-substitutions/) From 2012 Allergy Eats [No Substitutions” policies in restaurants: a disturbing new trend](https://www.allergyeats.com/no-substitutions-policies-in-restaurants-a-disturbing-new-trend/) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-to-you/843347/55 "2019-11-14T03:54:45Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > From 2012 [Have it THEIR way: More eateries say ‘no substitutions’](https://www.today.com/food/have-it-their-way-more-eateries-say-no-substitutions-961445) > > Not really all that new. > > From 2011 [When Restaurants Refuse Substitutions](https://www.chowhound.com/food-news/84285/when-restaurants-refuse-substitutions/) > > From 2012 Allergy Eats [No Substitutions” policies in restaurants: a disturbing new trend](https://www.allergyeats.com/no-substitutions-policies-in-restaurants-a-disturbing-new-trend/) I interpreted the cite as a request for specifically the “no alterations” as opposed to “no substitutions” wording. “No alterations” is less common a wording than “no substitutions” as far as I’ve seen it, but it most definitely is a wording I’ve seen on menus. Why the odd request for a cite for this by **D’Anconia** , I’m not exactly sure, and it doesn’t really add anything to the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-to-you/843347/56 "2019-11-14T04:32:42Z")
I went to a Japanese restaurant today. They offered some vegan dishes. This included a vegan bent with miso soup, but the miso soup wasn’t listed as vegan on the menu. When I asked, the waitress affirmed that even though the misogyny is listed in the vegan bento, they don’t serve it but substitute. What do they substitute? Nothing! ---
**Author:** ![lingyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d2c977/32.png) [@lingyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lingyi)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-to-you/843347/57 "2019-11-14T04:55:55Z")
> [@susan](#): > > I went to a Japanese restaurant today. They offered some vegan dishes. This included a vegan bent with miso soup, but the miso soup wasn’t listed as vegan on the menu. When I asked, the waitress affirmed that even though the misogyny is listed in the vegan bento, they don’t serve it but substitute. What do they substitute? Nothing! Most Japanese soups, especially miso and wakame use dashi (bonito flakes and seaweed) as their base, so not vegan. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-to-you/843347/58 "2019-11-14T15:44:06Z")
> [@susan](#): > > …the waitress affirmed that even though the misogyny is listed in the vegan bento… I didn’t even know you could order misogyny for dinner these days. I certainly wouldn’t! ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-to-you/843347/59 "2019-11-14T17:34:13Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I didn’t even know you could order misogyny for dinner these days. I certainly wouldn’t! You have to order it specifically and it costs more if you’re female. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-no-substitutions-mean-to-you/843347/60 "2019-11-14T19:58:37Z")
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