# What does non-toxic masculinity look like? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 17, 2019, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935 "2019-01-17T17:06:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/221 "2019-01-22T13:54:53Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Um… No. They really don’t. Not in the same way. When a man responds with “You guys don’t like me but I’m not here to make friends”, it makes them look like a badass. It makes them seem strong, commanding, and independent. It strengthens their position, because societally, that is what we expect from men. But in women? They don’t sound strong, they sound _shrill_. They don’t seem commanding, they seem _bossy_. These are absolutely gendered problems. [I don’t think you understand this concept very well](https://hbr.org/2013/04/for-women-leaders-likability-a). Maybe civilian cultures a little different, but as a former military man who was in an authority position, in my experience, yeah saying that whether you were a man or woman pretty much garuanteed you were already or were going to face pushback. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/222 "2019-01-22T13:56:35Z")
What’s the difference if people think you’re a dickhead or bitchy…they still don’t like you and will still go out of their way to undermine you. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/223 "2019-01-22T13:59:33Z")
We always said, if you have to say you’re the boss. You aren’t really the boss. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/224 "2019-01-22T14:21:29Z")
I think most of the responders don’t really understand what the likability penalty is. The tl;dr version is that attributes that people find as positives in managers is also seen as positives in men but are seen as negatives in women. Therefore the more a woman works to be a good manager the less likes she is by those around her so the man gets the promotion because he is confident and assertive while the woman gets pushed aside because she is bitchy and a shrew. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/225 "2019-01-22T14:26:07Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I think most of the responders don’t really understand what the likability penalty is. The tl;dr version is that attributes that people find as positives in managers is also seen as positives in men but are seen as negatives in women. Therefore the more a woman works to be a good manager the less likes she is by those around her so the man gets the promotion because he is confident and assertive while the woman gets pushed aside because she is bitchy and a shrew. This is probably where my perception is skewed. Confident, assertive, direct to the point are always, or at least much more often valued in the military. No matter your sex. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/226 "2019-01-22T14:33:54Z")
The best thing you can do no matter who you are when you get in front of that group is say alright, you guys do this, you guys do that, you guys do x, any questions? Ok, fall out. Done, this is what everyone wants who’s standing there waiting to go do what they gotta do. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/227 "2019-01-22T15:07:53Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > This is probably where my perception is skewed. Confident, assertive, direct to the point are always, or at least much more often valued in the military. No matter your sex. After my first yearly eval in the US, my coworkers (all of them American) asked “well, how did it go? :D” “My apologies, but I’ve got a question for the gentlemen in the group.” “Oy vey!” “Have any of you guys ever been told that your results were amazing, you were so good your boss had even received two spontaneous emails as well as the expected forms… but that in your manager’s opinion, you needed to be sweeter?” “:smack::smack::smack::smack::smack::smack::smack:” I do hope nobody has ever told a soldier, male or female, that they needed to be sweeter. But apparently in my case, being able to solve in half an hour problems that had stumped five other people (actual specialists on the issue, unlike me) for months and being the best designer in a 200-people team wasn’t good enough; I had to be sweet. That’s the kind of thing **Saint Cad** is talking about. FTR, the leadership style you describe is one I’m perfectly comfortable with on either side, but I treasure the times I can actually use it from the “giving instructions” side. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/228 "2019-01-22T16:27:04Z")
There is quite a bit of data showing that the Likability Penalty is a real thing. While YOU\* may value a woman who speaks her mind research shows [this](https://bized.aacsb.edu/articles/2018/06/women-face-likeability-penalty-in-recruiting) > [@](#): > > In a survey of hiring decision makers, Quadlin discovered that their hiring patterns likely were the result of employers applying different sets of standards for male and female applicants. That is, when vetting male applicants, employers value competence and commitment; when vetting female applicants, they value likability. [anecdote](https://gender.stanford.edu/news-publications/gender-news/women-leaders-does-likeability-really-matter) > [@](#): > > Abramson lost her job because her leadership style was deemed incompatible with the daily operations of the newspaper. It was widely publicized that she was opinionated and outspoken. Women leaders who are assertive are often “seen as pushy and brusque,” she said, while “these same characteristics are seen as leaderly in men.” Reflecting on the previous male New York Times executive editors, who were known to throw phones across the room when they were angry, Abramson recalled, “I’m not aware that I ever even raised my voice in the newsroom.” > > This vivid example highlights the vast differences between what is judged acceptable behavior for women and men. [Great quote from a guy that DOESN’T get it](https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/new-zenger-folkman-research-challenges-sheryl-sandbergs-likability-penalty-204510621.html) > [@](#): > > “Women should not assume that being promoted to a senior position causes them to be disliked,” said Joe Folkman, President of Zenger Folkman. In the end it’s all about what you do that causes you to be liked or disliked in the workplace, not what gender you are." Do you see that part “what you do”? Like speak your mind in a meeting? Like be direct with subordinates? Etc.? THAT is the basis of the Likability Penalty [Great synopsis](https://www.catalyst.org/system/files/The_Double_Bind_Dilemma_for_Women_in_Leadership_Damned_if_You_Do_Doomed_if_You_Dont.pdf) of the Likability Penalty > [@](#): > > These perceptions inhibit women’s advancement because “taking-charge” skills and stereotypically > masculine behaviors, such as assertiveness and competition, are often seen as prerequisites for top-level > positions. \*Generic YOU ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/229 "2019-01-22T18:02:04Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > So a study that says that despite already being an especially encouraged group girls still lose interest and the answers are even more encouragement. > > Why do they need so much special treatment to attain even a marginal percentage of interested girls? Because we’ve barely scratched the surface at equal encouragement to women in STEM areas. I easily envision girls in some backwater hick town who are being indoctrinated at home into thinking they are only good for baby-making. Having a teacher encouraging her math skills probably isn’t going to be enough to undo that damage. And yes I say it’s damage. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/230 "2019-01-22T20:34:48Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > After my first yearly eval in the US, my coworkers (all of them American) asked “well, how did it go? :D” > “My apologies, but I’ve got a question for the gentlemen in the group.” > “Oy vey!” > “Have any of you guys ever been told that your results were amazing, you were so good your boss had even received two spontaneous emails as well as the expected forms… but that in your manager’s opinion, you needed to be sweeter?” > “:smack::smack::smack::smack::smack::smack::smack:” > > I do hope nobody has ever told a soldier, male or female, that they needed to be sweeter. But apparently in my case, being able to solve in half an hour problems that had stumped five other people (actual specialists on the issue, unlike me) for months and being the best designer in a 200-people team wasn’t good enough; I had to be sweet. > > That’s the kind of thing **Saint Cad** is talking about. FTR, the leadership style you describe is one I’m perfectly comfortable with on either side, but I treasure the times I can actually use it from the “giving instructions” side. Yeah that’s crazyness. I have had a great eval where the criticism was that I needed to socialize and be friendlier with co-workers. Talk more to people. They want to know things about me. So kind if similar but of course they put it as friendlier, not sweeter. This was just before the army and I was a factory maintenance worker… Guess I really didn’t talk to people. Though I was shocked that socializing was apparently part of the job. But that’s about as close as that gets. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/231 "2019-01-22T21:06:22Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > There is quite a bit of data showing that the Likability Penalty is a real thing. While YOU\* may value a woman who speaks her mind research shows > [this](https://bized.aacsb.edu/articles/2018/06/women-face-likeability-penalty-in-recruiting) > > [anecdote](https://gender.stanford.edu/news-publications/gender-news/women-leaders-does-likeability-really-matter) > [Great quote from a guy that DOESN’T get it](https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/new-zenger-folkman-research-challenges-sheryl-sandbergs-likability-penalty-204510621.html) > > Do you see that part “what you do”? Like speak your mind in a meeting? Like be direct with subordinates? Etc.? THAT is the basis of the Likability Penalty > > [Great synopsis](https://www.catalyst.org/system/files/The_Double_Bind_Dilemma_for_Women_in_Leadership_Damned_if_You_Do_Doomed_if_You_Dont.pdf) of the Likability Penalty > > \*Generic YOU Yeah , I could see this in civilian workplaces more so. As loud , direct, short are all construed as rude. So I guess if it’s not expected from you people would take it even worse. In an environment where it’s expected of you, well. I’ve been in plenty of formations that the first thing heard after was thank God he/she didn’t talk too much or where a woman was apologetically asking for certain things to be done and you could just feel the eyerolls and the ok let’s get on with it attitude. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/232 "2019-01-22T21:34:25Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Yeah , I could see this in civilian workplaces more so. > As loud , direct, short are all construed as rude. No no no you don’t get it. In the civilian workplace this is considered a leadership characteristic\* AND as a positive in men and leads to men getting opportunities. This behavior is seen as a negative in women so they face the choice between 1. Not be short and direct and therefore not be seen as having valued management skills and thereby not be offered opportunities. OR 2. Be short and direct and by exhibiting “non-feminine” characteristics be unliked by bosses, peers and direct reports and thus not be offered opportunities. \*YMMV but in many fields this is an axiom ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/233 "2019-01-22T22:05:10Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > No no no you don’t get it. In the civilian workplace this is considered a leadership characteristic\* AND as a positive in men and leads to men getting opportunities. This behavior is seen as a negative in women so they face the choice between > > 1. Not be short and direct and therefore not be seen as having valued management skills and thereby not be offered opportunities. > OR > 2. Be short and direct and by exhibiting “non-feminine” characteristics be unliked by bosses, peers and direct reports and thus not be offered opportunities. > > \*YMMV but in many fields this is an axiom Yeah that’s exactly what I understood. Which is why I said, I could see this happening more in the civilian workplace. Which is why in my mostly military experience, this perception is skewed as these qualities are simply expected of everyone. To be clear, construed as especially rude from a woman. But leadership if a man does it, in proper proportions. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/234 "2019-01-22T22:08:55Z")
If I went around acting the same in the civilian workforce believe me it would be construed as rude. I’d have to tone it down a bit. But yes as a woman you’d have to tone it out and be seen as not a leader. I see what you’re saying. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/235 "2019-01-22T22:39:27Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > No no no you don’t get it. In the civilian workplace this is considered a leadership characteristic\* AND as a positive in men and leads to men getting opportunities. This behavior is seen as a negative in women so they face the choice between > > 1. Not be short and direct and therefore not be seen as having valued management skills and thereby not be offered opportunities. > OR > 2. Be short and direct and by exhibiting “non-feminine” characteristics be unliked by bosses, peers and direct reports and thus not be offered opportunities. > > \*YMMV but in many fields this is an axiom So , I’m wondering, do you think it’s mostly men that are offended by women who act like this? Or is it everyone? If it’s men, then I guess more men have fragile egos than I thought and it’s time to get comfortable with yourself (men) so you don’t have to be coddled. If it’s everyone then what’s the answer here? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/236 "2019-01-22T22:40:38Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > This is probably where my perception is skewed. Confident, assertive, direct to the point are always, or at least much more often valued in the military. No matter your sex. If you think that the military is free from the pervasive gender bias of considering confidence/assertiveness/directness to be admirable in men but bossy/bitchy in women, you’re kidding yourself. As [this 2016 study describes](https://watermark.silverchair.com/milmed-d-15-00342.pdf?token=AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAAAm8wggJrBgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggJcMIICWAIBADCCAlEGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQMVm20Cdm-CjQisEusAgEQgIICIlQAMz_QjSh_laXkFsILakWJAoc5m2zlb0JYyRIMmbPZGN1Pli568d4W9MnhbeTwPknQ2_q7fTVyyTw8zjP-095XP_pqLkBahVzg4b0uIhHvyRTJrOSMiMsA91LPf75LbAALNk7Cbj_bhMhmVzK7x5iVr99nPaFz66Iz0SoOEkptbWy7RHn6ZynBRvrYOAy3vx5G6atpz6WVNJckFm4E25eHaZdiHMJgpHEXhKGZR6GvKyn8-itLBJbpR0IBy5wLv4bvwVJTZmOuie4uIVrIxk4dwWS58MgNLkvA2QCHOxdtRp3laVL21wvBlYzp468jGqL0Q7BgaMHO0aXG6O5EGIZviZ1t7_bnOc9YrZfzo3wLn0MTlpyk9DT-xK0b6_MqGWpzNBSHjdP1yEKfMTui1JYM8zVg6z4mS3TYtRfakmhuaO9Uawlt09GO5jtXaZ65TOdYTr_K45aOtrWf87vnC-wptZ0XquHvfwy8zSfiB-upR3yuRn31qYcLc67eInF3ktzyxJiiIECa-qTbGD0tvvtLDvE_srnVy69oUm01jpVlugSUYJFq-kuvhJv_FJ86Gap6VKVGPmh9mKzHtd5md18LXMmG05HInNsT6ejKY3rEoy-i5OMHt8DLAuqQsbkw033_dLQJuX_esbrrXL6iu_CUtp8hPlyJ-aWfv2eu08XwNZ6Z0bFDTxm41r1iOjVPdYmhjpc8acNY0Zuq8wMo3_if6Q): > [@](#): > > At the unit level, certain leadership behaviors commonly experienced in a traditionally male profession that uniquely affect military women include implicit associations about women leaders. In social interactions in the workplace, women often experience a “double bind” in that they are expected to behave and lead in a feminine manner, yet are not taken seriously if they do since military leadership is implicitly associated with masculine behaviors. If women behave in a more masculine manner, they are viewed as being “bossy,” or a “bitch.” ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/237 "2019-01-22T23:03:04Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > If you think that the military is free from the pervasive gender bias of considering confidence/assertiveness/directness to be admirable in men but bossy/bitchy in women, you’re kidding yourself. As [this 2016 study describes](https://watermark.silverchair.com/milmed-d-15-00342.pdf?token=AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAAAm8wggJrBgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggJcMIICWAIBADCCAlEGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQMVm20Cdm-CjQisEusAgEQgIICIlQAMz_QjSh_laXkFsILakWJAoc5m2zlb0JYyRIMmbPZGN1Pli568d4W9MnhbeTwPknQ2_q7fTVyyTw8zjP-095XP_pqLkBahVzg4b0uIhHvyRTJrOSMiMsA91LPf75LbAALNk7Cbj_bhMhmVzK7x5iVr99nPaFz66Iz0SoOEkptbWy7RHn6ZynBRvrYOAy3vx5G6atpz6WVNJckFm4E25eHaZdiHMJgpHEXhKGZR6GvKyn8-itLBJbpR0IBy5wLv4bvwVJTZmOuie4uIVrIxk4dwWS58MgNLkvA2QCHOxdtRp3laVL21wvBlYzp468jGqL0Q7BgaMHO0aXG6O5EGIZviZ1t7_bnOc9YrZfzo3wLn0MTlpyk9DT-xK0b6_MqGWpzNBSHjdP1yEKfMTui1JYM8zVg6z4mS3TYtRfakmhuaO9Uawlt09GO5jtXaZ65TOdYTr_K45aOtrWf87vnC-wptZ0XquHvfwy8zSfiB-upR3yuRn31qYcLc67eInF3ktzyxJiiIECa-qTbGD0tvvtLDvE_srnVy69oUm01jpVlugSUYJFq-kuvhJv_FJ86Gap6VKVGPmh9mKzHtd5md18LXMmG05HInNsT6ejKY3rEoy-i5OMHt8DLAuqQsbkw033_dLQJuX_esbrrXL6iu_CUtp8hPlyJ-aWfv2eu08XwNZ6Z0bFDTxm41r1iOjVPdYmhjpc8acNY0Zuq8wMo3_if6Q): This just gives me a session timeout but IME all i experienced was the not taken seriously if they act too feminine part. Everything else was taken as just as bossy from anyone if they got carried away and just as good leadership if they didn’t. In other words, everyone hates their boss. The contention here seems to be that for men there’s a fine line between assertive and shithead and for women it simply overlaps to a point there is no middle ground. I’d like to see the study though, I’m interested in how this was conducted as it seems to me that any attitude studies are just about as open to interpretation as an individuals experience would be. They are often simply self reporting surveys. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/238 "2019-01-22T23:15:00Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > This just gives me a session timeout Huh. Here’s the biblio ref: > [@](#): > > MILITARY MEDICINE, 181, 1:28, 2016 > The Role of Leadership and Peer Behaviors in the Performance and Well-Being of Women in Combat: Historical Perspectives, Unit Integration, and Family Issues ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/239 "2019-01-22T23:40:34Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Huh. Here’s the biblio ref: Interesting, but yes this is based on self reporting surveys and is stated that this is not the norm. So some women felt that this was true. Not most. Not saying it doesn’t happen, just saying in my experience it didn’t seem prevalent, which this study supports that it’s not prevalent or at least that it’s not a complaint by the majority of women but is common enough that it could be improved. Which is why my perception of it is rather limited. It makes sense to me that it would be more common in a civilian environment though. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/240 "2019-01-22T23:50:33Z")
For about three years my unit commander was a woman, who was well respected, her replacement when she was promoted some 28 year old male officer just moving up…not so much. We once got a new female battalion commander , her speech at her change of command ceremony sounded like she just got prom queen and she had this whole valley girl thing going on despite being about 50. Myself and that female unit commander ( who was rather feminine herself outside of when she was acting in her position ) had a good laugh about it. Not that it’s necessarily better to make fun of how feminine she was acting but it’s just the culture. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935.md?page=13)