# What does non-toxic masculinity look like? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 17, 2019, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935 "2019-01-17T17:06:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2019, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/241 "2019-01-23T07:38:12Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > I easily envision girls in some backwater hick town who are being indoctrinated at home into thinking they are only good for baby-making. Or being a Dr,nurse,lawyer,historian,psychologist, or whatever…but by gummy you ain’ gon be no engineer. Sounds likely ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2019, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/242 "2019-01-23T08:07:37Z")
I think Navas example of a conversation with parents is more realistic in demonstrating how culture could affect a choice of which subjects are chosen specifically. I could see you’re example if we were talking about college enrollment numbers overall being dramatically lower for women but they’re actually higher. They just aren’t choosing STEM ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2019, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/243 "2019-01-23T08:35:23Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > So , I’m wondering, do you think it’s mostly men that are offended by women who act like this? > Or is it everyone? > > If it’s men, then I guess more men have fragile egos than I thought and it’s time to get comfortable with yourself (men) so you don’t have to be coddled. > > If it’s everyone then what’s the answer here? Like what? Saint Cad describes two different behaviors. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2019, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/244 "2019-01-23T12:31:15Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Like what? Saint Cad describes two different behaviors. One behavior, but I’m wondering who is it that is mainly offended by it ( I can only see very insecure men being offended), and if women are also offended by it, why, and or what Is the solution? Are other women also expecting women not to behave in manners typically associated with leadership? ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2019, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/245 "2019-01-23T12:39:34Z")
I’m not talking about when nice and sweet are the chosen behavior. Just direct and confident. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2019, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/246 "2019-01-23T12:50:37Z")
I could easily describe what is usually the problem when women think they are being direct and confident but are actually being bitchy. I could easily describe when men think they are being direct and confident but are actually being arrogant disrespectful pricks. But those are just cases of individuals not understanding the way people are taking their own actions. For the sake of this discussion, is there a level where a woman can act direct and confident where another woman will not take it as bitchy? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2019, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/247 "2019-01-23T14:00:32Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Are other women also expecting women not to behave in manners typically associated with leadership? Both men and women receive the same social programming about how genders are supposed to behave, so it shouldn’t be surprising that both men and women share the same gender biases in the workplace. This is not the kind of phenomenon you can fully appreciate just by going off your own personal experiences and observations. Here is an [article](https://www.forbes.com/sites/pragyaagarwaleurope/2018/10/23/not-very-likeable-here-is-how-bias-is-affecting-women-leaders/#f20450a295fd) worth reading. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/248 "2019-01-23T19:09:18Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Here is an [article](https://www.forbes.com/sites/pragyaagarwaleurope/2018/10/23/not-very-likeable-here-is-how-bias-is-affecting-women-leaders/#f20450a295fd) worth reading. Loved this example > [@](#): > > Madeline Heilman, a social and organizational psychologist who is Professor of Psychology at NYU showed that when a man helps out in the workplace, he is acknowledged and appreciated, and if he does not, it does not matter much. However, when a woman helps out, it is taken for granted, because that is her traditional role, and if she doesn’t, she is considered mean and unhelpful, character traits that are not assigned to a leader. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2019, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/249 "2019-01-23T22:06:02Z")
So, what are some possible solutions? Or is this more if a thing that just should be acknowledged as a barrier women overcome? Or don’t overcome? Is this a hey this is something that makes it hard for me, just so you know and are aware ( and maybe that will eventually shift attitudes) or is this something we expect a realistic solution to in the immediate future? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2019, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/250 "2019-01-23T22:17:36Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > So, what are some possible solutions? Well, ISTM that an important first step is recognizing that the problem exists. Once people realize that something that they take for granted as “fine” and “no big deal” is actually causing a problem, they are more likely to voluntarily change their behavior (see also: increased handwashing in restrooms when people learn that unwashed hands spread more germs). People getting into the habit of mentally asking themselves _“Am I seeing this behavior as ‘bossy’ or ‘bitchy’ from a woman when I’d just consider it ‘strong leadership’ from a man?”_ may not spontaneously solve the whole problem, but it will certainly make solving it easier in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2019, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/251 "2019-01-24T13:43:42Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, ISTM that an important first step is recognizing that the problem exists. Once people realize that something that they take for granted as “fine” and “no big deal” is actually causing a problem, they are more likely to voluntarily change their behavior (see also: increased handwashing in restrooms when people learn that unwashed hands spread more germs). > > People getting into the habit of mentally asking themselves _“Am I seeing this behavior as ‘bossy’ or ‘bitchy’ from a woman when I’d just consider it ‘strong leadership’ from a man?”_ may not spontaneously solve the whole problem, but it will certainly make solving it easier in the long run. Sounds about right. I think most people generally want to do the right thing. There’s always some more stubborn people, and some that will never change, but I guess if a major portion help out then the rest will confirm or at least eventually retire. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/252 "2019-01-30T22:07:10Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, ISTM that an important first step is recognizing that the problem exists. Once people realize that something that they take for granted as “fine” and “no big deal” is actually causing a problem, they are more likely to voluntarily change their behavior (see also: increased handwashing in restrooms when people learn that unwashed hands spread more germs). > > People getting into the habit of mentally asking themselves _“Am I seeing this behavior as ‘bossy’ or ‘bitchy’ from a woman when I’d just consider it ‘strong leadership’ from a man?”_ may not spontaneously solve the whole problem, but it will certainly make solving it easier in the long run. > [@Littleman](#): > > Sounds about right. I think most people generally want to do the right thing. There’s always some more stubborn people, and some that will never change, but I guess if a major portion help out then the rest will confirm or at least eventually retire. This is sadly ineffectual. Most guys will refuse to admit that they are sexist. They don’t even understand that a lot of what they do in unconscious. Take as one (on many anecdotes) I heard from Mrs Cad’s last job. According to him he fully supported women in her field but his first day he bought all the men expensive cigars and would go smoke with them. Never did anything for the women because “women don’t like cigars.” Also in meetings he would complement the men for being direct and getting things done while criticizing her for being too straight-forward and not diplomatic enough. SHE is the one that brought up the likeability penalty when she would point out provable lies that men made about her and his response was that she obviously did something to make them want to lies about her _so she needed to make up to them_. But of course he was supportive of women in the workplace. Just ask him. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/253 "2019-01-31T20:01:02Z")
Haven’t read the thread but here’s one example: of the 343 New York City Fire Department (FDNY) firefighters who were killed on 9/11, all 343 were men: > **[THE UNOFFICIAL HOME PAGE OF FDNY New York City Fire Department](https://nyfd.com/9_11_wtc.html)** > > New York City Fire Department ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2019, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935/254 "2019-02-18T23:58:56Z")
> [@Surreal](#): > > Haven’t read the thread but here’s one example: of the 343 New York City Fire Department (FDNY) firefighters who were killed on 9/11, all 343 were men: > > [THE UNOFFICIAL HOME PAGE OF FDNY New York City Fire Department](http://nyfd.com/9_11_wtc.html) What’s your point? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-non-toxic-masculinity-look-like/827935.md?page=12)