What does non-toxic masculinity look like?

[Littleman]

@BwanaBob

I easily envision girls in some backwater hick town who are being indoctrinated at home into thinking they are only good for baby-making.

Or being a Dr,nurse,lawyer,historian,psychologist, or whatever…but by gummy you ain’ gon be no engineer.

Sounds likely

[Littleman]

I think Navas example of a conversation with parents is more realistic in demonstrating how culture could affect a choice of which subjects are chosen specifically.

I could see you’re example if we were talking about college enrollment numbers overall being dramatically lower for women but they’re actually higher.

They just aren’t choosing STEM

[Nava]

@Littleman

So , I’m wondering, do you think it’s mostly men that are offended by women who act like this?
Or is it everyone?

If it’s men, then I guess more men have fragile egos than I thought and it’s time to get comfortable with yourself (men) so you don’t have to be coddled.

If it’s everyone then what’s the answer here?

Like what? Saint Cad describes two different behaviors.

[Littleman]

@Nava

Like what? Saint Cad describes two different behaviors.

One behavior, but I’m wondering who is it that is mainly offended by it ( I can only see very insecure men being offended), and if women are also offended by it, why, and or what Is the solution?

Are other women also expecting women not to behave in manners typically associated with leadership?

[Littleman]

I’m not talking about when nice and sweet are the chosen behavior.

Just direct and confident.

[Littleman]

I could easily describe what is usually the problem when women think they are being direct and confident but are actually being bitchy.

I could easily describe when men think they are being direct and confident but are actually being arrogant disrespectful pricks.

But those are just cases of individuals not understanding the way people are taking their own actions.

For the sake of this discussion, is there a level where a woman can act direct and confident where another woman will not take it as bitchy?

[you_with_the_face]

@Littleman

Are other women also expecting women not to behave in manners typically associated with leadership?

Both men and women receive the same social programming about how genders are supposed to behave, so it shouldn’t be surprising that both men and women share the same gender biases in the workplace.

This is not the kind of phenomenon you can fully appreciate just by going off your own personal experiences and observations.

Here is an article worth reading.

[Saint_Cad]

@you_with_the_face

Here is an article worth reading.

Loved this example

Madeline Heilman, a social and organizational psychologist who is Professor of Psychology at NYU showed that when a man helps out in the workplace, he is acknowledged and appreciated, and if he does not, it does not matter much. However, when a woman helps out, it is taken for granted, because that is her traditional role, and if she doesn’t, she is considered mean and unhelpful, character traits that are not assigned to a leader.

[Littleman]

So, what are some possible solutions?

Or is this more if a thing that just should be acknowledged as a barrier women overcome? Or don’t overcome?
Is this a hey this is something that makes it hard for me, just so you know and are aware ( and maybe that will eventually shift attitudes) or is this something we expect a realistic solution to in the immediate future?

[Kimstu]

@Littleman

So, what are some possible solutions?

Well, ISTM that an important first step is recognizing that the problem exists. Once people realize that something that they take for granted as “fine” and “no big deal” is actually causing a problem, they are more likely to voluntarily change their behavior (see also: increased handwashing in restrooms when people learn that unwashed hands spread more germs).

People getting into the habit of mentally asking themselves “Am I seeing this behavior as ‘bossy’ or ‘bitchy’ from a woman when I’d just consider it ‘strong leadership’ from a man?” may not spontaneously solve the whole problem, but it will certainly make solving it easier in the long run.

[Littleman]

@Kimstu

Well, ISTM that an important first step is recognizing that the problem exists. Once people realize that something that they take for granted as “fine” and “no big deal” is actually causing a problem, they are more likely to voluntarily change their behavior (see also: increased handwashing in restrooms when people learn that unwashed hands spread more germs).

People getting into the habit of mentally asking themselves “Am I seeing this behavior as ‘bossy’ or ‘bitchy’ from a woman when I’d just consider it ‘strong leadership’ from a man?” may not spontaneously solve the whole problem, but it will certainly make solving it easier in the long run.

Sounds about right. I think most people generally want to do the right thing. There’s always some more stubborn people, and some that will never change, but I guess if a major portion help out then the rest will confirm or at least eventually retire.

[Saint_Cad]

@Kimstu

Well, ISTM that an important first step is recognizing that the problem exists. Once people realize that something that they take for granted as “fine” and “no big deal” is actually causing a problem, they are more likely to voluntarily change their behavior (see also: increased handwashing in restrooms when people learn that unwashed hands spread more germs).

People getting into the habit of mentally asking themselves “Am I seeing this behavior as ‘bossy’ or ‘bitchy’ from a woman when I’d just consider it ‘strong leadership’ from a man?” may not spontaneously solve the whole problem, but it will certainly make solving it easier in the long run.

@Littleman

Sounds about right. I think most people generally want to do the right thing. There’s always some more stubborn people, and some that will never change, but I guess if a major portion help out then the rest will confirm or at least eventually retire.

This is sadly ineffectual. Most guys will refuse to admit that they are sexist. They don’t even understand that a lot of what they do in unconscious. Take as one (on many anecdotes) I heard from Mrs Cad’s last job. According to him he fully supported women in her field but his first day he bought all the men expensive cigars and would go smoke with them. Never did anything for the women because “women don’t like cigars.” Also in meetings he would complement the men for being direct and getting things done while criticizing her for being too straight-forward and not diplomatic enough.

SHE is the one that brought up the likeability penalty when she would point out provable lies that men made about her and his response was that she obviously did something to make them want to lies about her so she needed to make up to them.

But of course he was supportive of women in the workplace. Just ask him. :rolleyes:

[Surreal]

Haven’t read the thread but here’s one example: of the 343 New York City Fire Department (FDNY) firefighters who were killed on 9/11, all 343 were men:

THE UNOFFICIAL HOME PAGE OF FDNY New York City Fire Department

[Saint_Cad]

@Surreal

Haven’t read the thread but here’s one example: of the 343 New York City Fire Department (FDNY) firefighters who were killed on 9/11, all 343 were men:

THE UNOFFICIAL HOME PAGE OF FDNY New York City Fire Department

What’s your point?