# What does "PHD" mean and where does it come from? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 14, 2001, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-phd-mean-and-where-does-it-come-from/61938 "2001-04-14T10:45:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Dandmb50](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ba9def/32.png) [@Dandmb50](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dandmb50)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-phd-mean-and-where-does-it-come-from/61938/1 "2001-04-14T10:45:07Z")
Often we hear that someone has a PHD in whatever, what does the term mean and where does it come from? ---
**Author:** ![Astroboy14](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/df705f/32.png) [@Astroboy14](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astroboy14)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-phd-mean-and-where-does-it-come-from/61938/2 "2001-04-14T11:01:26Z")
PhD= Doctor of Philosophy. Where it comes from, I dunno… but it is given to those who (supposedly) have learned enough about their respective field that they now are qualified to conduct their own research to expand the knowledge of that field. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-phd-mean-and-where-does-it-come-from/61938/3 "2001-04-14T12:20:23Z")
More like “philosophorum doctorum” or similar Latin (I’d look it up but the dictionary is upstairs and everybody’s asleep). BTW, medical doctors borrow their title from this use. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-phd-mean-and-where-does-it-come-from/61938/4 "2001-04-14T13:29:27Z")
PhD = Doctor of Philosophy Doctor = entitled to teach Philosophy = not medicine, not divinity, pretty much anything else though ---
**Author:** ![Ringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/779978/32.png) [@Ringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ringo)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-phd-mean-and-where-does-it-come-from/61938/5 "2001-04-14T14:28:19Z")
The only other one that easily springs to mind is a Juris Doctorate (JD) which is what many lawyers sport. Besides presumably knowing the subject well enough to teach, one must also have demonstrably contributed to the field to gain a doctoral degree, hence the requisite thesis. ---
**Author:** ![Andy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aeb1de/32.png) [@Andy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-phd-mean-and-where-does-it-come-from/61938/6 "2001-04-14T14:51:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beatle \* > Besides presumably knowing the subject well enough to teach… Sadly, at least in the UK, this used to be the case, but is no longer true. Now, if you can fulfil the criteria to qualify for funding, you’ll get on your PhD course and will be awarded it after 3 or 4 years. The quality of the work or calibre of the candidate don’t seem to count anymore. Practically nobody ever fails, implying that all the candidates were good enough which simply cannot be true. ::sigh:: ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-phd-mean-and-where-does-it-come-from/61938/7 "2001-04-14T15:00:57Z")
What we used to say in grad school: B.S. = Bullsh_t M.S. = More sh_t Ph.D. = Piled higher and deeper Colibri, Ph.D. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-phd-mean-and-where-does-it-come-from/61938/8 "2001-04-14T15:09:31Z")
Lawyers also sometimes have LLD’s, though this is more commonly awarded by British universities, which seem more inclined to have specialized doctorates instead of the all-inclusive PhD. There are actually a number of “professional doctorate” degrees such as DMA (Doctor of Musical Arts) offered by some American universities. Sometimes they will have both a PhD program and a professional doctorate. Your dentist probably has a DDS (Doctor of Dental Surgery). I took a quick look at UCLA as a sample large university - they offer the following professional doctorates: DDS EDD - Education DENV - Environmental Science JD MD DMA - Musical Arts, also a PhD program DNSC - Nursing, also a PhD program DRPH - Public Health, also a PhD program DSW - Social Welfare, also a PhD program ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-phd-mean-and-where-does-it-come-from/61938/9 "2001-04-14T16:47:14Z")
Ph.D.: _philosophiae doctor_ A ‘new’ Latin phrase (meaning created well after the end of the use of Latin as a language of culture). ---
**Author:** ![PRNYouth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@PRNYouth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PRNYouth)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-phd-mean-and-where-does-it-come-from/61938/10 "2001-04-14T21:58:49Z")
Some seminaries and other religious schools often offer a “[D.Min.](http://www.nts.edu/academics/programs/dmin.asp)”, or a Doctorate of Ministry. (This is, obviously, a step above an “[M.Div.](http://www.nts.edu/academics/programs/mdiv.asp)”, or a Master of Divinity degree.) ---
**Author:** ![Gozu\_Tashoya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7993a0/32.png) [@Gozu\_Tashoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu_Tashoya)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2001, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-phd-mean-and-where-does-it-come-from/61938/11 "2001-04-15T00:07:51Z")
Are a doctorate (as in “he has a doctorate”) and a Ph.D necessarily the same thing? If not, which one is of greater relative worth? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2001, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-phd-mean-and-where-does-it-come-from/61938/12 "2001-04-15T01:24:43Z")
A “doctorate” just means a degree at the doctor level. It hence includes Ph.D, MD, DD, and any other doctoral degree you might care to name. It’s worth noting, by the way, that a lawyer’s JD is not a doctoral degree, despite the name. ---
**Author:** ![Hometownboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5e9695/32.png) [@Hometownboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hometownboy)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2001, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-phd-mean-and-where-does-it-come-from/61938/13 "2001-04-15T06:41:32Z")
Most, but not all, doctorates require a dissertation, that is a substantial piece of research that makes an original contribution to the field. This is on top of successfully completing coursework. It can take years to gather the research data and analyze it. The dissertation can involve a general introduction, a literature review of previously published work in the area, presentation of data, analysiz and conclusions. (One of the conclusions, invariably, is that the area needs more research). Once the dissertation is completed, it is turned in to a dissertation committee which examines it for several weeks, then quizzes the doctoral candidate in an open meeting in “defense of the dissertation.” Following a successful defense the committee signs off on the dissertation subject, any correections or additions are made and it is sent to the printers to be copied on high-quality rag paper and bound. Usually half a dozen copies are made of which two will go to the school libarary, another to the mentor who guided the candidate throught the process and the remainder to the candidate. IANAPHD, but am married to one who sucessfully defended her dissertation last month and is in the process of final copy cleanup before sending it to the printer. BTW, she tells me that some doctorates do not require a dissertation and can be earned by coursework alone. They rank somewhat lower on the pecking order of the university for that reason. And there is the phonomenon of “ABD”, standing for “All But Dissertation” which a surprising number of candidates end up with, having completed all the coursework and taken extensive exams, but for some reason are unable or unwilling to do the dissertation. There is a period, often ten years or so, from the time a candidate is admitted to a graduate school to the time when they have to turn in a finished dissertation. Aftet that time, if they are still serious about pursuing the doctorate, they would probably be required to retake the coursework. I am incredibly proud of my wife for staying the course and finishing the dissertation. It was a huge amount of work, but well worth it. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2001, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-phd-mean-and-where-does-it-come-from/61938/14 "2001-04-15T22:24:53Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s worth noting, by the way, that a lawyer’s JD is not a doctoral degree, despite the name. Says who? ---
**Author:** ![DAVEW0071](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19b73/32.png) [@DAVEW0071](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DAVEW0071)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2001, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-phd-mean-and-where-does-it-come-from/61938/15 "2001-04-15T22:52:44Z")
Well, in my line of work (the termite and pest control industry), PHD is used when an inspector makes a graph of the house he’s inspecting. Along with the visible damage indicated, PHD, which stands for “possible hidden damage” should also be noted somewhere. This is so that, even after treatment, if the homeowner remodels and finds more damage inside a wall, where it was hidden, there is no legal recourse. We can always say, “Well, we suspected hidden damage, and noted the possibility on the graph. Ain’t our fault.” Thus, the use of PHD is a good way to CYA. TTFN. ---
**Author:** ![keeper0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b19c9b/32.png) [@keeper0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keeper0)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2001, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-phd-mean-and-where-does-it-come-from/61938/16 "2001-04-16T00:04:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Ph.D. = Piled higher and deeper Those of you who have gone through the grad school process should check out [these comic strips](http://phd.stanford.edu). They are written by friend Jorge as a way of venting graduate student frustrations. I think they are freaking hilarious. Sample: A grad student is working as a Teaching Assistant and leading a review session. TA: Does anyone have any questions about the homework? Student: What’s the answer to question 2? TA: I can’t tell you the answer, but I can help you work it out. Student: So… what’s the answer times two? ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2001, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-phd-mean-and-where-does-it-come-from/61938/17 "2001-04-16T00:14:57Z")
We’ve discussed the use of doctoral level degrees professionally and socially in several [other](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=58744) [threads](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=46919). In both of those threads, **DSYoung** , I’ve covered the history and status of the J.D. degree, and to avoid forcing people to go hunting for my words of wisdom :rolleyes: in those threads, I’ll repost them here. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Billdo \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > > I’d only add that, in law, you get the Doctorate _then_ the Masters (if you keep going) _then_ the Ph.D. (for hard-core academics only). I’ve always considered my degree to be the functional equivalent of a Masters, but not on the same level as a Ph.D. in another subject. It certainly didn’t take as long to get, and I didn’t have to write a dissertation (neener neener neener). 😉 > > Actually, Jodi, that’s because the J.D. is actually a renamed bachelors degree. Originally, the degree granted on the completion of law school was the LL.B. (bachelor of laws). If you look at the c.v. of some older lawyers or senior law professors, you will see that they often have a B.A. or B.S. and a LL.B. > > I believe that this dates back to the period when an undergraduate bachelors was not required for law school. Because a law degree could be the initial academic degree granted, it was properly a bachelor’s degree. The “advanced” law degrees, LL.M. (masters of law) and S.J.D. (doctor of juridical science) or LL.D. (doctor of laws, though I think I’ve only seen this as an honorary degree) were ones received after one’s “bachelors.” > > The story that I’ve heard is that sometime in the 1950’s or 60’s some clever lawyers figured out that federal government employees that held a doctoral degree were paid much more than similarly-ranked ones with merely a bachelors. They convinced the law schools to award a J.D. (Juris Doctor) as their initial degree in lieu of the LL.B. I also understand that the schools allowed LL.B. holders to upgrade their LL.B.'s to J.D.'s if necessary. > > The custom of not referring to J.D.'s as “doctor” probably stems from the historical basis of this doctoral degree. Also, it would have been anomalous for the younger lawyers with “doctoral” degrees to be called “doctor”, while the more senior ones retaining their bachelors would not be entitled to such a title. > > I understand that in Germany and many other continental European countries attorneys usually have a full-blown doctoral degrees and are usually referred to professionally as “Doctor.” > > In law school, we generally referred to our professors as “Professor,” except for one particularly pompous fellow who had a Ph.D. as well as a law degree who was insistent that he be called “Doctor.” Note that in England and other British Commonwealth countries, medical school graduates will often be awarded the M.B. (Bachelor of Medicine) and/or Ch.B. (Bachelor of Surgery) degrees, rather than the M.D. (Doctor of Medicine) degree awarded in the U.S. In higher academic circles, there is often a distinction made between graduate students and professional students. Graduate students are those seeking the M.A., M.S. or Ph.D. degrees, while professional students are taking courses of studies at a professional school like a law, medical, education or business schools which will lead to a professional degree like a J.D., M.D., M.Ed. or M.B.A. Those who have been awarded the Ph.D. degree, which almost always requires course work, comprehensive oral and written examinations, and the completion and defense of a dissertation which contains in-depth and innovative research, often quite properly believe that they have demonstrated a greater academic acheivement than those who have merely completed a professional course of study, even if the professional degree is of the doctoral level. Put another way, when I was awarded my J.D., I got to march in the fancy doctoral robe with the three stripes on the sleeves, wear the massive doctoral hood, and have a gold tassel on my cap, but I sure as heck didn’t have to do what the Ph.D.'s did to get their fancy robes, hoods and tassels. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2001, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-phd-mean-and-where-does-it-come-from/61938/18 "2001-04-16T00:32:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DSYoungEsq \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > It’s worth noting, by the way, that a lawyer’s JD is not a doctoral degree, despite the name. > > Says who? \*\* There seems to be divided opinion on this. The list from UCLA that I gave above was from a tabular breakdown of degrees offered at UCLA by category, and they had their JD program listed in the “professional doctorate” column along with the others like MD, DDS, DMA … The “Atlanta Regional Consortium for Higher Education” also includes JD programs in their list of “doctoral level” degrees: [http://www.atlantahighered.org/institutions/doctoral.htm](http://www.atlantahighered.org/institutions/doctoral.htm) Note that they also include it under the heading “professional degrees”. In general, many educational institutions refer to a JD as “doctoral level”. University of Washington has language like this in their literature: > [@](#): > > Applicants who do not hold a doctoral level (PhD, JD, MD) degree from a US University are required by the University of Washington to take the Graduate Record Examination (GRE). However, **Chronos** is correct that some sources do not consider the JD a doctoral level degree. In particular, government service classifications place a JD at a lower level. Presumably, there is no hard and fast legal definition of “doctoral level”, and educational institutions wish descriptions of their law school programs to seem as prestigous as possible, so they say things like “… culminating in a JD (equivalent to a doctorate in other fields).” ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2001, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-phd-mean-and-where-does-it-come-from/61938/19 "2001-04-16T01:10:01Z")
I got my JD in 1966 and the only difference between the JD and the LLB at the school I attended (DePaul) was your point average. I believe now that only JDs are given, as stated in a prior post. I’ve never considered it a doctorate degree, as I never had to write a thesis and did not need a master’s first. However, it is more than a baccalareate as you need that before attending law school. It is sort of an anomaly. As I said, I never considered it a doctorate degree until one day a judge called me “Doctor.” I said that I wasn’t a doctor, and he replied, “You have a JD, don’t you.” That’s good enough for me. You can call me anything you want, but just don’t call me late for dinner. (An old joke, but so am I.) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2001, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-phd-mean-and-where-does-it-come-from/61938/20 "2001-04-16T04:55:54Z")
The problem with calling a JD a doctoral-level degree is it leaves open the question of what an SJD or LLD is. It doesn’t make sense to have one doctoral degree, and then have another doctoral degree two levels above it. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-phd-mean-and-where-does-it-come-from/61938.md?page=2)