# What Does Sweden Know That We Don't? \[The Swedish Welfare State\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 21, 2019, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954 "2019-02-21T13:09:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/41 "2019-02-22T00:51:30Z")
I gather the Swedes are patriotic in a way that matters, in that they care about their fellow citizens, while the U.S. version more likely involves getting weepy over flags and anthems and saying “_fuck_ my fellow citizens” the rest of the time. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/42 "2019-02-22T01:22:04Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > When did this happen in the U.S.? When I was young teenage baby-sitters got a fraction of the minimum wage. when most states passed laws that made it impossible for teenagers to do those jobs legally and babysitting sort of fell out of style also ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/43 "2019-02-22T01:41:00Z")
Sweden and other Nordic countries also had a strong socialist movement and labour movement before WWI that organized and fought for what it wanted. While the US had similar movements, capital and the state were more effective in destroying them. Sweden and other countries thus had strong anti-fascist movements that ensured the countries didn’t move right in the 1930s, like Germany and Austria and Italy did. As for diversity, Sweden has 6 families of dialects, some of which are incomprehensible to someone who only speaks Standard Swedish. That problem was worse Pre-WWI when much of the groundwork for its left policies and parties was laid. How left is it? Obama would be considered a right wing politician, on the right of right wing parties, as he would in most OECD countries. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/44 "2019-02-22T03:11:34Z")
It may be hard to understand how Sweden’s consensus-driven politics work. In every election since forever, the center left party (Social Democrats) finishes first. The center right party (New Moderates) finishes second. Then they generally form a coalition which gives them the majority in the Parliament (Riksdag) and they nearly whatever they want. When they want to create new government benefits and raise taxes, they can do so. When they want to trim benefits and lower taxes, they can do so. They have done so in the recent past. The system removes the need for two-year-long campaigns, fundraising, massive ad buys, bringing screaming lunatics into the Riksdag building to attempt to disrupt the proceedings, accusing anyone of being a Russian pawn, etc… ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/45 "2019-02-22T04:44:36Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m not following, but if you or someone can give an example of an ethnic group in the U.S. being used this way… unless you’re talking about how Donald Trump uses race to divide American opinion on things? > > So, like, the reason we can’t have better policies is because of Donald Trump? Well, shit, someone should have said that right in the beginning, and I’d be right on board! 😉 > > Again, what this is lacking is any substantiation of this, or even examples, which is what I’ve been asking for. The point was diversity leads to diverse opinions. In the US that is largely on implementation…nobody wants to kill babies but we can’t agree when it’s a baby. Everyone wants reasonable access to healthcare but nobody agrees how to accomplish that. Ethnicity can play in to a difference in viewpoint since different ethnicities have different experiences , which help shape viewpoints. So, we disagree on how to make things happen even if it’s what everyone wants. For example, how might a conservative catholic pro life persons views as to which party to vote for change if that person also happens to be Mexican American or White? What if they are poor? ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/46 "2019-02-22T04:48:06Z")
How about another conservative religious person who is black? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/47 "2019-02-22T05:01:50Z")
> [@XT](#): > > How would I substantiate that in terms you’d accept? I mean, to me, clearly Sweden is full of Swedes…Swedes who are and have been a homogeneous population that have lived, worked, married, had children, died, fought and everything else together as a people with a common history and outlook for centuries, if not longer. Equally clearly, America and Americans have not. We do have a common mythology/history, sort of like Sweden, but it’s not the same. Ethnicity wise, we are clearly not the same…we have a huge number of ethnic groups, and even within some arbitrary narrow and vertical group like ‘Swedish American’ there are more differences than between groups of Swedes living in different parts of Sweden. But did you not read **Grim Render** ’s post about foreign born citizens? > [@Grim\_Render](#): > > Percentage of foreign-borne citizens: Australia **33** , Switzerland **29** , New Zealand\*\* 25\*\*, Canada **22** , Sweden **18.5** , USA **14,** Norway **14** , Belgium **13** , Iceland **11** , Denmark **9**. Sweden has more foreign-born citizens than does the US. How can you go on about how Sweden is homogenous with a common outlook for centuries, when that many Swedish citizens are immigrants, more than is the case in the US? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/48 "2019-02-22T05:07:22Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > It may be hard to understand how Sweden’s consensus-driven politics work. In every election since forever, the center left party (Social Democrats) finishes first. The center right party (New Moderates) finishes second. Then they generally form a coalition which gives them the majority in the Parliament (Riksdag) and they nearly whatever they want. Except of course when the centre right [Alliance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_(Sweden)) wins power, as it did in 2006 and held office for eight years, until 2014. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/49 "2019-02-22T06:01:32Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > But did you not read **Grim Render** ’s post about foreign born citizens? > > Sweden has more foreign-born citizens than does the US. How can you go on about how Sweden is homogenous with a common outlook for centuries, when that many Swedish citizens are immigrants, more than is the case in the US? This would heavily support that homogenous theory. 62 percent of the population belongs to a single Lutheran Church, with less than 2 percent in any other church. 70 percent Is Christian and 24 percent are unaffiliated. > **[Religion in Sweden | Church of Sweden](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Sweden#Church_of_Sweden)** > > Representing about half of the population, the Church of Sweden (Swedish: Svenska kyrkan) is the largest Christian church in Sweden, and also the largest religious body. The church professes the Lutheran faith and is a member of the Porvoo Communion. As of 2022, it had 5,563,351 members, 52,8 % of the Swedish population, although surveys show different figures, ranging from 24% to 52.1%. to 67.3%. Until 2000 it held the position of state religion, and most Swedes were baptised a 1.About 1 out of ... And paying attention to the words of swedes chiming in here when speaking of Immigrants they use terms like “assimilate” or “integrate” Which to me indicates a viewpoint of trying have immigrants adopt your culture? Not to mention some large portions of foreign born are from other Nordic countries as i understand it? ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/50 "2019-02-22T06:21:06Z")
In any case size alone , they have slightly more populace than a major city here. A state doesn’t have a hard time legislating. Owing to the size and geographical range being small enough to contribute to more shared views. We have strong red and strong blue states. So we’ve even managed comparably sized and populaced regions that tend to homogenize. Imagine if one had a strong central religion, of course you could get things done. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/51 "2019-02-22T09:23:29Z")
In 2010, apparently about 10 % of the population was first generation immigrants from outside the EU. I’ve not found newer stats, but given the rise of immigration since, I would not be surprised to learn that the percentage of non-EU immigrants by now is bigger than the US total immigration percentage. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > But did you not read **Grim Render** ’s post about foreign born citizens? > > Sweden has more foreign-born citizens than does the US. How can you go on about how Sweden is homogenous with a common outlook for centuries, when that many Swedish citizens are immigrants, more than is the case in the US? That was the first half of my point. The second is that Sweden and Swedish policies are not some outlier. Similar ones are implemented and seem to work in many nations. It could in fact be argued that it is the US that is the outlier here. For the homogeneity argument to be valid it is not enough for Sweden to be homogenous. They must all be homogenous. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/52 "2019-02-22T10:40:49Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > In any case size alone , they have slightly more populace than a major city here. > > A state doesn’t have a hard time legislating. Owing to the size and geographical range being small enough to contribute to more shared views. > > We have strong red and strong blue states. So we’ve even managed comparably sized and populaced regions that tend to homogenize. Imagine if one had a strong central religion, of course you could get things done. I think this is much the same thing as the homogeneity argument. I.e. ones own nation, close up looks more complex than another one far away. How different is the Swedish system with a population of 10 million from the German one with 80+ million ? How different is the Icelandic system with a population of 300 000 to that of Sweden at 10 million ? If there are no particular scaling issues from 300 000 to 10 million to 80 million why would we assume that there will be scaling issues from 80 million to 320 ? Where is the evidence ? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/53 "2019-02-22T10:55:23Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > 62 percent of the population belongs to a single Lutheran Church, with less than 2 percent in any other church. > > 70 percent Is Christian and 24 percent are unaffiliated. > > [Religion in Sweden - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Sweden#Church_of_Sweden) From your own cite: until 1996 all newborns with at least one parent being a member of the Church of Sweden were also registered as members of the church so the number of people “belonging” to the Lutheran Church tells us absolutely bugger all about [actual](https://www.thelocal.se/20150413/swedes-least-religious-in-western-world) Swedish religious attitudes. According to [Gallup](http://www.gallup-international.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/GIA-Book-2015.pdf), only 19 per cent of Swedes claim to be religious, compared with 63 per cent globally. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/54 "2019-02-22T12:45:55Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > I think this is much the same thing as the homogeneity argument. I.e. ones own nation, close up looks more complex than another one far away. > > How different is the Swedish system with a population of 10 million from the German one with 80+ million ? How different is the Icelandic system with a population of 300 000 to that of Sweden at 10 million ? > > If there are no particular scaling issues from 300 000 to 10 million to 80 million why would we assume that there will be scaling issues from 80 million to 320 ? > > Where is the evidence ? How different is getting the whole US to vote similarly as opposed to just New York ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/55 "2019-02-22T12:48:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > From your own cite: > until 1996 all newborns with at least one parent being a member of the Church of Sweden were also registered as members of the church > so the number of people “belonging” to the Lutheran Church tells us absolutely bugger all about [actual](https://www.thelocal.se/20150413/swedes-least-religious-in-western-world) Swedish religious attitudes. According to [Gallup](http://www.gallup-international.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/GIA-Book-2015.pdf), only 19 per cent of Swedes claim to be religious, compared with 63 per cent globally. Yeah, the odd thing too is that they seem to have a larger number of Muslim refugees then the reported number of muslims in religious demographics …? ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/56 "2019-02-22T13:15:22Z")
Plus up until roughly 20 years ago the large majority if their foreign born were from Nordic countries. Imagine if the US immigration was basically only Canadians until 2000 and we had a state religion, regardless of low numbers of the devout. Though, new York is pretty diverse yet votes pretty predictably so that would make me think some other factor is at play …geographic size? Idk ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/57 "2019-02-22T13:27:36Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Yeah, the odd thing too is that they seem to have a larger number of Muslim refugees then the reported number of muslims in religious demographics …? _Muslim_ refugees, or refugees from _countries_ generally considered Muslim? Because that’s not the same thing. In fact, not being Muslim is a very good reason to be a refugee from some of those countries. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/58 "2019-02-22T13:43:37Z")
Pft! I’m not buying it, at all. No, it’s not reflective of geographical differences, or demographics or hemogeny even. It’s fundamentally different because of the difference in cultural values. The US views with deep skepticism every collective action ‘for all’, as a step towards socialist tyranny. Whether it’s universal health care or equal school funding. Equal oncern for ALL citizens doesn’t happen the same way in America. The fear the ‘undeserving’ may benefit makes every social program subject to stringent means testing. Worthiness is everything in America. Other countries want basic rights for EVERY citizen, healthcare, access to education, etc. They have no means testing for these things, believing every citizen deserves these things equally. Regardless of ethnicity, income, address, skin colour. This is all about these society’s core values in my humble opinion. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/59 "2019-02-22T14:06:31Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > 1. The importance of government competence. If people feel like their money is being well spent they are more willing to be taxed. The US government has a well earned reputation for incompetence. Part of the reason is government union rules that make it nearly impossible to be fired for incompetence. This is just nonsense. Government employees can be are fired every day. Is it easy, no, but it’s done all the time. Our government isn’t incompetent. If you live some foreign, you’ll learn what incompetent government looks like. Overall government employees from my experience and educated, dedicated and are hard working. If we have problems here, it’s not due to the individual government employee. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/60 "2019-02-22T15:22:44Z")
Here’s a complete “I’m just now pulling it out of my butt” theory to discuss. Northern cultures find it easier to enact collectivist policies because their cultures required collective action in order to survive long winters. It also encouraged being in confined spaces with others for long periods leading to cultural norms that favor the group over the individual. More southern cultures allowed more freedom of movement year round and less need to rely upon a community to survive due to abundance of food and no need for long winter preparatory periods. Talk amongst yourselves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954.md?page=4)