# What Does Sweden Know That We Don't? \[The Swedish Welfare State\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 21, 2019, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954 "2019-02-21T13:09:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Unpronounceable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9de0a6/32.png) [@Unpronounceable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unpronounceable)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/81 "2019-02-22T20:15:07Z")
Just a minor note about that diversity claim: About 14% of the US is black…so how could only 14% be diverse? Those stats were about first-generation immigrants, not ethnic or social diversity. Foreign-born is not required for diversity. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/82 "2019-02-22T20:18:15Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So which social programs, specifically, does Sweden have and the US not have, due to racism? > > I’m not asking for proof that we don’t have, say, universal health care because whites don’t want blacks to go to hospitals… just your gut feeling. > > And I’d be curious to hear from the others who have proposed ethnic diversity as a main issue here, if they have any response to your ideas. I’m not sure what social programs Sweden DOES have that the US doesn’t. I was merely positing on the fact that the two are unique countries with their own sets of reason why they aren’t and cannot be the same with regards to policy implementation. I’d say UHC is one but like I said, it’s less about that bogey word you’re using (racism) and more about who gets what and then who pays for it. (If it isn’t me but it is me paying etc) ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/83 "2019-02-22T20:22:22Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Very few government workers are fired. 0.4% of government workers are fired each year, which is less than one third the percentage in the private sector. I doubt government workers are three times as competent as other workers. I had a boss who had worked for the government for almost 40 years tell me that the government would be twice as effective if they fired the right 25% of the workforce. I have worked closely with many government workers and most of them are dedicated and hard working but the percentage of people who are lazy or incompetent is just higher in the government than elsewhere. When my SO first started teaching there was an older teacher who was universally considered the worst teacher in the school. He was lazy, unmotivated, and the kids disliked him. Because of his degree and his seniority he was also the highest paid teacher in the school. Oh so what. God forbit we have people in this country who are simply mediocre at their jobs. Besides, your highest paid teacher probably makes less money than some 20-something year old a year out of college in his first job year in the socially conscientious job of investment banker analyst at Goldman Sachs. The problem with this country (USA) is that so many people are so infatuated by wealth and power. And the wealthy and powerful have created this hyped-up bullshit Ayn Rand inspired narrative that their hard work and ingenuity justify their controlling such a disproportionate amount of wealth. If you aren’t rich, it’s probably because you are lazy, stupid or took some “loser job” like school teacher or social worker. So now, instead of one “tyrannical” government, we have 500+ tyrants who directly control your livelihood and can dangle “jobs” in front of local municipalities to get their way. > [@Ravenman](#): > > And I’d be curious to hear from the others who have proposed ethnic diversity as a main issue here, if they have any response to your ideas. It may not be the “main” issue, but it’s an issue. IMHO, ethnic diversity creates negative attitudes towards socialized services because minority ethic groups are viewed as “others”. People who came from somewhere else to take advantage of American society. Fine if they want to compete in the marketplace. Not so ok if they are receiving benefits that the “locals” have to pay for. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/84 "2019-02-22T20:23:46Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I feel like I keep repeating myself: if someone were to ask why we have the agricultural policy we do, and someone responded with something about the urban/rural divide in the US, I’d take no issue with that answer. It’s pretty easily shown how urban and rural voters favor different things with respect to subsidies, food stamps, etc. > > But putting ethnicity as a top reason why the US doesn’t have a different social welfare system makes literally no sense. And literally everyone I ask about this keeps stating the obvious: that the U.S. is more ethnically diverse than Sweden. I keep saying, so the fuck what? What does diversity have to do with social programs? If we had fewer (blank)-Americans, we would have universal health care? That doesn’t sound right at all. It sounds like total nonsense. I see nothing that ties a people’s view on, say, individualism or the proper role of government to their color, religion, genes, or whatever. And I feel like I’m repeating myself as well, and to no avail as we are obviously still having a serious disconnect. I’m guessing that our disconnect perhaps has to do with how you are defining ‘ethnicity’ and how I am, though I’ve been pretty clear (for me) about what I mean by that. If it makes no sense to you, ‘literally’ then the disconnect is too great for me to bridge, as to me it makes the most sense. Asking ‘What does diversity have to do with social programs’ is, again, such a huge disconnect that I can’t wrap my head around it…it’s like we are on completely different worlds and speaking in a language that sounds the same but obviously isn’t. And the fact that what I’m saying ‘sounds like total nonsense’ to you sort of underscores the point. > [@](#): > > I disagree. Americans are more likely to hold general principled views about social issues that transcend geography. For example, few Americans would say that they support universal health care for their state, but not for people living 500 miles away. Few Americans would say that they favor easy access to birth control for people a few states over, but not for themselves. This part I quoted is patently silly. Well, I thought the whole post sounded like nonsense to you. 😉 Yes, we do have a bar…no doubt about it. But our national bar is set way below that of Sweden…pretty obviously so. And I’m suggesting (IMHO and all) that one of the reasons for this is geographic distance, size of population and, of course, ethnic and cultural heterogeneous population. You seem to want to focus on one of those to the exclusion of all else, but it’s a package deal…and one major factor, that is ‘nonsense’ to you IS the difference between the shared values, history and just connected-ness in a homogeneous population verse the lack of those ties and bindings in society that come from such a diverse heterogeneous population. That we have overcome this, to a pretty good degree IMHO, is a testimony to the good points of our system. But we aren’t Sweden or Japan with a homogeneous population and shared identity that they have that has evolved together and who in general agree more strongly on certain issues, such as the role of government in society and where the bar should and will be set for social programs. As Bump says “So the more homogenous a country is, something’s either a VERY hard sell, or it’s relatively easy.”. I think this nicely sums things up for me. Obviously you disagree. I’m good with that. Like I said, the disconnect between us is so great on this one that I don’t think there is sufficient common ground to even discuss this rationally. You haven’t laid out your own thoughts on the OP as far as I can tell, just attacked mine, so I think I’ll wander out at this point unless something interesting comes up. No hard feelings on my part. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/85 "2019-02-22T20:41:28Z")
> [@Unpronounceable](#): > > Just a minor note about that diversity claim: > > About 14% of the US is black…so how could only 14% be diverse? > > Those stats were about first-generation immigrants, not ethnic or social diversity. > > Foreign-born is not required for diversity. I think this underscores a key point in this. What, exactly, is ‘black’? That 14% you are defining as ‘black’ is actually a huge range of different ethnic and cultural mix…and that’s just AMERICAN ‘black’. ‘Black’ people in, say, New York aren’t that similar to those in, say, LA…or Texas…or North Dakota. Then you have the cultural influence on your vague ‘black’ definition that comes from the fact that ‘black’ people in the US come from, literally, every part of Africa. Sure, many are from West Africa, but many are from all the rest of the regions (we won’t even get into ‘black’ people who came here after being transplanted out of Africa originally). Then you have, presumably, the 80 whatever percent you are obviously lumping into ‘white’. Except, those ‘white’ people people come from all over the place too (including Sweden), with a bunch of very different cultural and ethnic backgrounds, traditions and history. And, again, depending on where in the country we are talking about…‘white’ folks in Baltimore and pretty different than ‘white’ people in Seattle. Next we could talk about ‘hispanic’ people, who in some cases are in the ‘white’ category, but in others are in their own separate category. Again…huge difference. A ‘hispanic’ person from, say, Puerto Rico is very different than a ‘hispanic’ person from Mexico…or places in central or south America. Or freaking Spain. ‘Asian’ is the same. That’s why I made a joke (that no one got I’m sure) in my first post about Americans thinking of race in terms of ‘black’ and ‘white’. When you actually think about how truly diverse the US is outside of the blanket terms of ‘white’, ‘black’, ‘hispanic’, ‘Asian’ or ‘other’ it gets to the root of why we aren’t like Sweden or Japan, why we have a more diverse view point on what the government should or shouldn’t do or be or what we, collectively should or shouldn’t do or be. It’s kind of amazing to me sometimes that our system works at all. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/86 "2019-02-22T21:14:20Z")
> [@Kropotkin](#): > > Many private sector employees are fired because capital always has an incentive to do more with fewer workers or with workers who are paid less. Unemployment and overwork for those who remain are mere externalities for the boss. Many people see that as a bug, not a feature. Also, without union protection you can be fired literally on a whim. Again, many see that as a bug, not a feature. Obviously it has benefits to the workers, but everything has trade offs and in this case it is that government workers are not as competent as private sector workers. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/87 "2019-02-22T21:21:38Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Oh so what. God forbit we have people in this country who are simply mediocre at their jobs. > > Besides, your highest paid teacher probably makes less money than some 20-something year old a year out of college in his first job year in the socially conscientious job of investment banker analyst at Goldman Sachs. > > The problem with this country (USA) is that so many people are so infatuated by wealth and power. And the wealthy and powerful have created this hyped-up bullshit Ayn Rand inspired narrative that their hard work and ingenuity justify their controlling such a disproportionate amount of wealth. If you aren’t rich, it’s probably because you are lazy, stupid or took some “loser job” like school teacher or social worker. > > So now, instead of one “tyrannical” government, we have 500+ tyrants who directly control your livelihood and can dangle “jobs” in front of local municipalities to get their way. It is a big deal that the teacher has been harming students for 30 years with little or no consequences. If it is not a problem that bad teachers are very difficult to get rid of then either teachers are not an important part of education, or education is unimportant. I would agree that education is way overrated but since we force kids to spend 13 years in school at least we could make sure their teachers are not lazy jerks. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/88 "2019-02-24T23:13:18Z")
I’ll point out the vast majority of Sweden’s diversity has come since 2000. Along with increasing support for their most right wing party. You’ll find tons of articles about how their diversity used to be Finn’s and most people didn’t consider them foreign. Tons articles about how immigration is now starting a divide and overall causing the country to lurch to the right. What changed? The foreign born started to be from non nordic countries and those outside the EU. Even articles that could be considered downright racist here, pointing out how 58 percent of rapes were from foreign born immigrants and most if those were from Muslim nation’s and such. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/89 "2019-02-25T01:55:21Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Except of course when the centre right [Alliance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_(Sweden)) wins power, as it did in 2006 and held office for eight years, until 2014. You are correct, my mistake. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/90 "2019-02-25T04:24:45Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > They have no means testing for these things, believing every citizen deserves these things equally. Regardless of ethnicity, income, address, skin colour. Well there is means testing via the progressive tax brackets, also in Australia for example we pay a medicare levy and this rises in % as your pay increases. ---
**Author:** ![Brayne\_Ded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/91 "2019-02-25T10:06:46Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > I think the ethnicity question in Sweden is going to answer itself. The large scale immigration over the last 10-20 years is going to seriously change the ethnic makeup of Sweden. I would guess that in 20 years time we’ll see what impact that has on the Swedish social state. I don’t honestly have a clue. Now that the Social Democrats no longer have a monopoly on the government, Sweden is much less stable than it was before. The rise of extremist parties is troubling and trying to assimilate the large immigrant populations has proven challenging. If you look at all of the mess that happened over the last half year, you can see that immigration is going to be a serious challenge to the status quo. > > I think that the rise of conservatism in the rest of the EU might also have a negative impact on the Swedish safety net. The Swedish economy is sluggish and jobs and corporations are slipping away to the south where tax rates are cheaper. That makes it tempting to cut taxes to deal with the problem, but Swedish social programs make that nearly impossible. What we are seeing is that a lot of the ‘cadillac plan’ government programs are slowly being ramped down. The number of Swedes turning to private insurances and pension plans has been increasing steadily over the last 15 years or so and it would be hard for anyone to say that the safety net is as secure or as robust as it was a decade ago. > > This isn’t to say that the social safety net is dead, but I don’t think the picture is quite as rosy as the OP suggests and there is certainly reason to wonder about its long term prospects. We’ll see. I think the world is gearing up for ‘Interesting Times’ as the saying goes, but I’m an eternal pessimist, so we’ll see. Very good points, and true of most of Europe. The mass immigration of the past half century or thereabouts has changed the countries concerned because the societies are no longer cultural and racially homogeneous. The racial aspect is important: all the European countries experienced huge internal migrations as they industrialized, and then came the upheaval of the two world wars. The migrants were often less than welcome, despite being nationals of the same country or a neighboring one. This process got repeated on another level when immigrants came in, and in recent years, increasingly from the Third World. This has fueled a nationalist and racist backlash in just about every country in Europe, and the problem will only get worse, IMHO. Sweden has a problem common to all the developed economies; it is too expensive. All the developed countries are frantically looking apound for a new way to generate wealth, and essentially from nothing. The solutions tend to be finance, service industries, IT and high-tech. Or offering very high quality. Then problem is the premium on quality may be too high for most consumers, and in many fields the quality gap between very nice and near crap is closing due to automated manufacturing technologies. If the economy tanks, then what happens with the social welfare model? Will the immigrants be regarded as fellow Swedes or Johnny come latelies? FWIW. wealthy countries like Norway, Switzerland and Sweden were dirt poor 200 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/92 "2019-02-25T10:17:43Z")
Every country has its ‘Us’ and ‘Them’, it doesn’t matter if if from outside the country they all look like one big group, and sometimes the older a place is, the more time it’s had to elevate what look like no difference at all to outsiders into a major divide. Take the little Lancashire mill town my Dad grew up in in England; there was an East/West divide, with their own little accent variations, the two sides didn’t mix, short of fighting, and supported different football teams. Within the West side, those who went to Southport during [Wakes week](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wakes_week) looked down on those classless folk who went to Blackpool, who in turn thought the Southport guys were humourless snobs who thought they were better than everyone else. One town of maybe 30-40,000 inhabitants, all white Protestant Lancashire mill workers, and had been for generations, but still over half the population was people you’d not be allowed to be good friends with or, heaven forbid, date, without getting ostracised. People who want to find someone to look down on and ‘other’ will _always_ find someone. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/93 "2019-02-25T10:25:11Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > Every country has its ‘Us’ and ‘Them’, it doesn’t matter if if from outside the country they all look like one big group, and sometimes the older a place is, the more time it’s had to elevate what look like no difference at all to outsiders into a major divide. > > Take the little Lancashire mill town my Dad grew up in in England; there was an East/West divide, with their own little accent variations, the two sides didn’t mix, short of fighting, and supported different football teams. Within the West side, those who went to Southport during [Wakes week](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wakes_week) looked down on those classless folk who went to Blackpool, who in turn thought the Southport guys were humourless snobs who thought they were better than everyone else. > > One town of maybe 30-40,000 inhabitants, all white Protestant Lancashire mill workers, and had been for generations, but still over half the population was people you’d not be allowed to be good friends with or, heaven forbid, date, without getting ostracised. > > People who want to find someone to look down on and ‘other’ will _always_ find someone. This. Look at how XT lists the original extraction of Americans as a source of difference. Swedish, German, Italian etc, after their families have been in the US for a century. In my opinion, the US has more hostility between the perceived groups, not more diversity. But that does result in higher perceived diversity, so I guess it doesn’t refute the argument. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/94 "2019-02-25T11:38:55Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Not exactly a huge difference there, though I’m sure the Swedes and Finns would both say I’m wrong. As would anyone who was aware of what the word ethnicity actually means. Finns and Swedes don’t even speak the same language family. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/95 "2019-02-25T14:57:06Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > As would anyone who was aware of what the word ethnicity actually means. Finns and Swedes don’t even speak the same language family. From a quick Google search: > [@](#): > > According to statistical definition Finland Swedes are those Finnish citizens having Swedish as their mother tongue. … They are closely related to those dialects spoken in northern Sweden and even in northern Norway.Apr 17, 1998 The majority of Finns who immigrated to Sweden did so in the 16th through the 17th centuries. There was some large immigration in the pre-WWII and post war years with tension and even war between Finland and the USSR, and certainly those populations are completely ethnically separated (and also the reason for a lot of tension between Swedes, the majority of the Swedish Finn population and these new immigrants). So, yes, I’m familiar with what the term means, and I was speaking mainly tongue in cheek there, since you are right…they WOULD see it as a huge difference. Kind of underscores the point though. And though Swedish Finns make up the largest minority population they don’t even comprise 10%. Roughly, it looks like around 5% or so to me. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/96 "2019-02-25T15:07:33Z")
> [@XT](#): > > From a quick Google search: What does a cite about Finland Swedes have to do with Sweden Finns, who speak [Finnish](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Finns)? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/97 "2019-02-25T15:16:20Z")
I think it may be instructive to look at individual US states. [USA Today: States with the most government benefits](https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/01/26/states-with-the-most-government-benefits/4899375/) There’s some diverse states on there but probably more that are rather homogeneous. But the more obvious common denominator looks like being a blue state. From the article: > [@](#): > > Of the 10 states that ranked as the most generous, nine voted Democratic in the last presidential election, with Alaska as the exceptions. Of the 10 states that spent the least on their social programs, all but one — Florida — voted Republican. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/98 "2019-02-25T15:25:23Z")
\*though I admit, looking at the last Presidential vote is a little too superficial. But it’s pretty hard to defend that the difference in spending between New York and Florida is because of the difference in their homogeneity. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/99 "2019-02-25T16:00:39Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What does a cite about Finland Swedes have to do with Sweden Finns, who speak [Finnish](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Finns)? Um…from your own cite: > [@](#): > > Today, Finns are the largest immigrant group in Sweden, and Finnish is an official minority language of Sweden. The benefits of being a “minority language” are however limited to Finnish-speakers being able to use Finnish for some communication with local and regional authorities in a small number of communities (Borås, Borlänge, Botkyrka, Degerfors, Enköping, Eskilstuna, Fagersta, Finspång, Gällivare, Gävle, Göteborg, Gislaved, Hällefors, Håbo, Hallstahammar, Haninge, Haparanda, Hofors, Huddinge, Järfälla, Köping, Kalix, Karlskoga, Kiruna, Lindesberg, Ludvika, Luleå, Malmö, Mariestad, Motala, Norrköping, Nykvarn, Oxelösund, Pajala, Söderhamn, Södertälje, Sandviken, Sigtuna, Skövde, Skellefteå, Skinnskatteberg, Smedjebacken, Solna, Stockholm, Sundbyberg, Sundsvall, Surahammar, Tierp, Trelleborg, Trollhättan, Trosa, Uddevalla, Umeå, Upplands-Väsby, Uppsala, Västerås, Norrtälje, Upplands-Bro, Älvkarleby, Örebro, Örnsköldsvik, Österåker, Östhammar, Övertorneå) where Finnish immigrants make up a considerable share of the population, but not in the rest of Sweden. Just like in the US in minority communities. The majority of Swedish-Finns speak Swedish, with some speaking both and a small minority speaking only Finish, usually recent immigrants. I’m unsure of what point you were trying to make in all of this in the context of this thread and the discussion that was going on. Could you be more specific as to what you are trying to demonstrate? Is it that Swedes and Finns are distinct ethnic groups? If so, I agree…they are. Is it that Finns and Swedes speak different languages? If so, then I agree…yes they do. But most of the Finns in Sweden have been there for centuries, and while along the border they speak various dialects of Swedish, they still speak Swedish…and in many cases Finish as well. And so…what are you getting at? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954/100 "2019-02-25T19:42:36Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Is it that Swedes and Finns are distinct ethnic groups? Yes. They are, and they are very different. > [@](#): > > If so, I agree…they are. > [@XT](#): > > I believe the largest ethnic minority were Finns. Not exactly a huge difference there, though I’m sure the Swedes and Finns would both say I’m wrong. Make up your mind… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-sweden-know-that-we-dont-the-swedish-welfare-state/829954.md?page=4)