# What does Th. mean in a name? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 29, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-th-mean-in-a-name/587257 "2011-06-29T14:03:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Michael\_of\_Lucan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dbc845/32.png) [@Michael\_of\_Lucan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_of_Lucan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-th-mean-in-a-name/587257/21 "2011-06-30T15:32:10Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > 😕 You say the \*th \*in “Thomas” like the \*th \*in “thumb”? I have never heard that anywhere, ever. That sounds like some kind of lisp. Where is it you’re talking about? > [@jjimm](#): > > This is very common in Ireland, which is where I presume **Michael of Lucan** is from (Lucan being a suburb of Dublin). > > I always put it down to an overcompensation for the common Irish pronunciation of “D” or “T” for “TH” - “dis, dat, dese and dose” for “this, that, these and those”. > > I have also heard many Irish people talk about “Thigh-land” for “Thailand” and the river “Thems” for “Thames”. > > Having said that, this perception of mine is probably overly anglocentric and such pronunciation is correct, and we’re the ones who are wrong. Yes, in Ireland, it is common to pronounce Thomas with an initial “th” sound. I don’t think it has any relation to the Hiberno-English pronunciation of “th” as “t” or “d” as jjimm suggests. If it were, we would do the opposite. There are two good reasons why many of us pronounce Thomas that way - - First, it’s spelt that way. Can’t you folks read? 😉 - Second, that pronunciation is a close approximation to the beginning of the Irish name Tomás, which is pronounced a bit like _Thom-awse_ - with a soft labial “T”. A similar softening of “T” is found in other European languages. The other examples given by jjimm are a little unfair on Irish people. The pronunciation of Thailand with a “th” was common in the UK too until international travel became common. While I was travelling towards your time, I stopped off for several years in the 1960s. I remember playing the board game Risk with English people in that era, and they kept making silly jokes related to “thigh-land” and “thy-land”. And I womder if many people outside the UK know that it’s the _“Tems”_, not the Thames. Once again the British are playing _gems_ with pronunciation. ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-th-mean-in-a-name/587257/22 "2011-06-30T15:49:15Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I don’t know where the _Th_ comes from in the English version of the name. I don’t think it appears in any other language’s version of the name Thomas. Both French and German have it, assuming you’re talking about the written letters. Neither language would pronunce it /θ/. “Tomas” is also used and probably more common in Germany now, but Thomas Mann is a notable example. The influence on English is more likely French, considering words like [thyme](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=thyme) come from Old French. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-th-mean-in-a-name/587257/23 "2011-07-01T05:06:33Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > I have also heard many Irish people talk about “Thigh-land” for “Thailand” … Well, sometimes it is, heh. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Damfino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Damfino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damfino)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-th-mean-in-a-name/587257/25 "2011-07-01T22:39:12Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > These comments seem a little bit ambiguous to me. > > The usual pronunciation of “Thomas” in English-language-majority countries is ['tɒməs] (with considerable variation on the first vowel). I’ve never heard a native English speaker treat the _th_ as a regular _th_ digraph in English \*['θɒməs]. > > It’s also an abbreviation of a surname in the Indian state of Manipur, where everybody is also named Singh ([http://www.telegraphindia.com/1110630/jsp/northeast/story\_14175838.jsp](http://www.telegraphindia.com/1110630/jsp/northeast/story_14175838.jsp)). > > In Indian English, the _th_ digraph is usually handled as an aspirated unvoiced dental plosive – [t̪ʰɔmas] > > I don’t know where the _Th_ comes from in the English version of the name. I don’t think it appears in any other language’s version of the name Thomas. Help ---
**Author:** ![Damfino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Damfino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damfino)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-th-mean-in-a-name/587257/26 "2011-07-01T22:43:40Z")
> [@Damfino](#): > > Help Sorry. My answer somehow got mixed up with **acsenray** s. I know several people from Manipur, and if I find out their meaning of Th. I’ll let you know. In Wodehouse Thos. is the commonest abbreviation. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-th-mean-in-a-name/587257/27 "2011-07-02T06:31:14Z")
> [@Michael\_of\_Lucan](#): > > Yes, in Ireland, it is common to pronounce Thomas with an initial “th” sound. I don’t think it has any relation to the Hiberno-English pronunciation of “th” as “t” or “d” as jjimm suggests. If it were, we would do the opposite. Hence my proposition of “overcompensation”. However, I as I said, it’s only a pet theory of mine based on observation when living there - I have no evidence for it. > [@](#): > > The other examples given by jjimm are a little unfair on Irish people. But some of my best friends are Irish! 😉 > [@](#): > > The pronunciation of Thailand with a “th” was common in the UK too until international travel became common. While I was travelling towards your time, I stopped off for several years in the 1960s. I remember playing the board game Risk with English people in that era, and they kept making silly jokes related to “thigh-land” and “thy-land”. I can certainly imagine this. But in the past few years I’ve never heard a Brit use the “th” pronunciation, whereas I have heard the “th” sound for Thailand from Irish people _who were in Thailand at the time_, as well as from Irish people in Ireland who had travelled there several times. > [@](#): > > And I womder if many people outside the UK know that it’s the _“Tems”_, not the Thames. Once again the British are playing _gems_ with pronunciation. I’m too ignorant to know what “playing gems” means, but the Thames is a pretty famous river, and most Irish people are exposed to British media on a very regular basis, but on my observation the “th” sound persists for that river, from an observable minority of people, in Ireland. Not that we’re much better - few Brits can pronounce “Thurles” for example. I pronounced it the Irish way and got mocked for my plastic paddy accent, but when I said it using an English approximation I got mocked for mispronunciation. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-th-mean-in-a-name/587257/28 "2011-07-02T14:59:57Z")
In the Dorothy L. Sayers novel _Clouds of Witness_, the Dowager Duchess talks about how her daughter’s fiance, George Goyles, would sign his name Geo. Goyles, “and I could never keep from reading it as Gargoyles, you know…” ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-th-mean-in-a-name/587257/29 "2011-07-02T16:21:34Z")
> [@BetsQ](#): > > Here’s a [list](http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Abbreviations_for_English_given_names). Incidentally, they list Thomas as Thos. Do they have a list of abbreviations for last names? ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_of\_Lucan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dbc845/32.png) [@Michael\_of\_Lucan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_of_Lucan)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-th-mean-in-a-name/587257/30 "2011-07-03T21:13:36Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > I’m too ignorant to know what “playing gems” means, but the Thames is a pretty famous river We call this humour in Ireland. Thames is pronounced _Tems_, so games must be pronounced _gems_ … ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-th-mean-in-a-name/587257/31 "2011-07-03T23:03:28Z")
I agree with jjimm. Many Irish people are unaware that Thomas, Thailand, Thames, etc., begin with a [t]. It is indeed a form of hypercorrection or spelling pronunciation, arising from a peculiarity of Hiberno-English phonology, which in turn has its roots in Irish phonology. The reason is that many Irish accents don’t distinguish between [t] and [th] (“theme” and “team” are homophones for people with these accents). When the word is spelt with “th-” but pronounced (locally) with [t], people assume that it is correctly pronounced with [th]. This is reasonable and is right most of the time. In the case of “Thomas”, this line of reasoning leads to the incorrect (but perfectly understandable) conclusion that the word should be pronounced with a “th”. For this reason, Irish people who have learned to distinguish [t] and [th], where their peers or their parents do not, use [th] for Thomas, Thailand and Thames. A similar line of reasoning can lead people to pronounce the “t” in “often”. ---
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-th-mean-in-a-name/587257/32 "2011-07-03T23:13:15Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > I agree with jjimm. Many Irish people are unaware that Thomas, Thailand, Thames, etc., begin with a [t]. It is indeed a form of hypercorrection or spelling pronunciation, arising from a peculiarity of Hiberno-English phonology, which in turn has its roots in Irish phonology… Ok, but back to my OP, is it also common to see Th. as an initial in the middle of a name, even when it’s taken to stand for Thomas? ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-th-mean-in-a-name/587257/33 "2011-07-04T00:40:56Z")
> [@RadicalPi](#): > > Also, since you mentioned Haiti, is that using a two-letter initial is fairly common in French when the first letter is a consonant and the second is an H. So, names like Charles and Philippe will often become Ch. and Ph, even when everyone else’s name gets just the one letter. I view it as an old-fashioned practice, but I’ve noticed that quite often in former French colonies where French is the main business language but not necessarily the first language of the population (Haiti and francophone African countries, for example) practices that I would consider old-fashioned are still current. So that’s quite likely the reason. And now that I think about it, I do remember learning in school that a period in an abbreviation is supposed to stand in for a vowel. So it makes sense that names starting with two or more consonant letters would keep these letters in their abbreviation. And furthermore, ‘p’ and ‘ph’, or ‘c’ and ‘ch’ don’t map to the same sound in French, so if somebody is referred to as Ch. Whatever I have a better chance to pronounce his or her name correctly than if it were C. Whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-th-mean-in-a-name/587257/34 "2011-07-04T18:15:38Z")
> [@RadicalPi](#): > > Also, since you mentioned Haiti, is that using a two-letter initial is fairly common in French when the first letter is a consonant and the second is an H. So, names like Charles and Philippe will often become Ch. and Ph, even when everyone else’s name gets just the one letter. I figure that would be similar to the reason why “LL” and “CH” used to be considered “letters” for alphabetization purposes in Spanish: Ch and Ll don’t sound the same as C and L in Spanish, Ch and Ph don’t sound the same as C and P in French. And heck, in Italian CC, CH and C all sound different… does anybody know whether Cc. and Ch. are used as “initials for abbreviation purposes” in Italian? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-th-mean-in-a-name/587257/35 "2011-07-05T02:22:31Z")
> [@BetsQ](#): > > … or Chas is short for Charles. Growing up in Texas and seeing this a lot in our phonebook, it took me forever to figure out that Chas was short for Charles not actually a name itself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-th-mean-in-a-name/587257.md?page=1)