# What does the Bible say about abortion? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 16, 2019, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-bible-say-about-abortion/834043 "2019-05-16T10:03:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-bible-say-about-abortion/834043/41 "2019-05-17T18:25:28Z")
A search for the word womb may give some more context: > [@Exodus 13:2](#): > > 2 “Sanctify to Me every firstborn, the first [a]offspring of every womb among the sons of Israel, both of man and beast; it belongs to Me.” Many OT verses like this. Hints at perhaps the earliest time such a offer can be made. Here ‘offsping of every womb’ would seem to be once the child is outside the womb to be ‘offspring’ of it. Why not make that offering before birth? God seems to do a lot of blessing and cursing to the fetus: > [@Deuteronomy 28:18](#): > > The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks. Again many more verses like this. > [@Judges 13:5](#): > > You will become pregnant and have a son whose head is never to be touched by a razor because the boy is to be a Nazirite, dedicated to God from the womb. He will take the lead in delivering Israel from the hands of the Philistines.” Who does this dedication inside the womb, or does he just come out this way, already dedicated? > [@Judges 16:17](#): > > So he told her everything. “No razor has ever been used on my head,” he said, “because I have been a Nazirite dedicated to God from my mother’s womb. If my head were shaved, my strength would leave me, and I would become as weak as any other man.” Well how he gets this dedication from inside the womb, it does seem like he is recognized as a human from inside the womb. > [@Psalm 51:6](#): > > Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb; you taught me wisdom in that secret place. . Here showing that the human fetus is being taught wisdom inside the womb. > [@Jeremiah 20:17](#): > > For he did not kill me in the womb, with my mother as my grave, her womb enlarged forever. Here showing one could be killed inside the womb, note the mother is the grave, even though we know the body is expelled from the mother. That womb is noted as the final resting place, thus her womb is enlarged forever’ - as it now holds this grave. I believe there is another set of verses in the Book of Job where the womb is said to be the underworld, though I can’t find it that quickly since I believe it is 2 back to back verses, which makes searching harder. Again much of this indicating that the womb is not subject to worldly authority. There are many more verses that contain the word womb which gives context to what it is, I just took some of them, here is a complete list in the NIV: > **[BibleGateway - Keyword Search: womb](https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=womb&qs_version=NIV&limit=500)** ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-bible-say-about-abortion/834043/42 "2019-05-17T18:38:46Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Are you perhaps unfamiliar with what a pessary is? It’s a device that is inserted inside the vagina. Which I think qualifies it as a tool that gets in there. It was soaked in herbs. It wasnt used to scrape out or otherwise remove the embryo. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-bible-say-about-abortion/834043/43 "2019-05-17T19:44:06Z")
Thing is with abortion, something dies. I know the joy of my wife being pregnant and then her having a miscarriage. I know something died and it hurt us deeply. I hope I can see that child in heaven. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-bible-say-about-abortion/834043/44 "2019-05-17T21:16:01Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Thing is with abortion, something dies. I know the joy of my wife being pregnant and then her having a miscarriage. I know something died and it hurt us deeply. I hope I can see that child in heaven. What died in your wife’s miscarriage was more than just a clump of cells, it was your idea of your child and all your hopes and dreams of what that child could have become. I’m sorry. But not everyone has that or wants that. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-bible-say-about-abortion/834043/45 "2019-05-17T21:42:26Z")
> [@tim-n-va](#): > > Numbers 5:11-31 is interpreted by some as describing an abortifacient as a test for adulatory. > [@Velocity](#): > > It’s just dust from the ground. It was magic dust, blessed or cursed by the priest so as to kill the bastard fetus. Realistically, the dust was from near the ark, which we know was toxic (you watched “raiders of the lost arc”, right?) Perhaps the arc had some heavy metal or even radioactive component, explaining how proximity to it, and how eating dust from it, could be deadly: from “JPS TANAKH: The Holy Scriptures (blue): The New JPS Translation according to the Traditional Hebrew Text” by Jewish Publication Society Inc., Inc. Jewish Publication Society - 11The LORD spoke to Moses, saying: 12Speak to the Israelite people and say to them: If any man’s wife has gone astray and broken faith with him 13in that a man has had carnal relations with her unbeknown to her husband, and she keeps secret the fact that she has defiled herself without being forced, and there is no witness against her—14but a fit of jealousy comes over him and he is wrought up about the wife who has defiled herself; or if a fit of jealousy comes over one and he is wrought up about his wife although she has not defiled herself—15the man shall bring his wife to the priest. And he shall bring as an offering for her one-tenth of an ephah of barley flour. No oil shall be poured upon it and no frankincense shall be laid on it, for it is a meal offering of jealousy, a meal offering of remembrance which recalls wrongdoing. 16The priest shall bring her forward and have her stand before the LORD. 17The priest shall take sacral water in an earthen vessel and, taking some of the earth that is on the floor of the Tabernacle, the priest shall put it into the water. 18After he has made the woman stand before the LORD, the priest shall bare the woman’s head and place upon her hands the meal offering of remembrance, which is a meal offering of jealousy. And in the priest’s hands shall be the water of bitterness e-that induces the spell.-e19The priest shall adjure the woman, saying to her, “If no man has lain with you, if you have not gone astray in defilement while married to your husband, be immune to harm from this water of bitterness that induces the spell. 20But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and have defiled yourself, if a man other than your husband has had carnal relations with you”—21here the priest shall administer the curse of adjuration to the woman, as the priest goes on to say to the woman—“may the LORD make you a curse and an imprecation among your people, as the LORD causes your thigh to sag and your belly to distend;e 22may this water that induces the spell enter your body, causing the belly to distend and the thigh to sag.” And the woman shall say, “Amen, amen!” 23The priest shall put these curses down in writing and rub it off into the water of bitterness. 24He is to make the woman drink the water of bitterness that induces the spell, so that the spell-inducing water may enter into her to bring on bitterness. 25Then the priest shall take from the woman’s hand the meal offering of jealousy, elevate the meal offering before the LORD, and present it on the altar. 26The priest shall scoop out of the meal offering a token part of it and turn it into smoke on the altar. Last, he shall make the woman drink the water. 27Once he has made her drink the water—if she has defiled herself by breaking faith with her husband, the spell-inducing water shall enter into her to bring on bitterness, so that her belly shall distend and her thigh shall sag; and the woman shall become a curse among her people. 28But if the woman has not defiled herself and is pure, she shall be unharmed and able to retain seed. 29This is the ritual in cases of jealousy, when a woman goes astray while married to her husband and defiles herself, 30or when a fit of jealousy comes over a man and he is wrought up over his wife: the woman shall be made to stand before the LORD and the priest shall carry out all this ritual with her. 31The man shall be clear of guilt; but that woman shall suffer for her guilt." Start reading this book for free: [JPS TANAKH: The Holy Scriptures (blue): The... - Kindle](http://a.co/dCOSLxk) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-bible-say-about-abortion/834043/46 "2019-05-17T21:43:29Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > [God is the world’s greatest abortionist](https://centerforinquiry.org/blog/god_is_the_greatest_abortionist/) That is one of the main reasons I do not trust the ones trying to ban abortion in almost all circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2019, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-bible-say-about-abortion/834043/47 "2019-05-18T02:28:47Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It was soaked in herbs. It wasnt used to scrape out or otherwise remove the embryo. I’m just responding to what you wrote: > [@Shodan](#): > > Effective abortifacients that didn’t risk killing the mother weren’t really a thing. > [@DrDeth](#): > > No healer got in their with tools, that would mean death to the mother pretty much 99% of the time. A pessary is exactly that. A tool that went inside a vagina. Arguing that it wasn’t a tool if it had herbs on it seems pretty weak. And can you provide me with a cite for your 99% fatality claim? Because I find that really doubtful. I won’t claim that getting an abortion was risk free - then or now - but any procedure that involved a 99% mortality was essentially murder. Hard to believe any woman, no matter how desperate, would agree to such a procedure. If her intent was suicide, there were easier ways to kill yourself. The evidence is that using a pessary to cause an abortion must have been a relatively well known possibility. It was common enough for Hippocrates to specifically mention it. And while it had risks, it appears women figured they had a reasonable chance of surviving the procedure. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2019, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-bible-say-about-abortion/834043/48 "2019-05-18T02:34:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The OP asked about the Bible, not just the Gospels. I’m aware of that. I specifically mentioned the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament. > [@Shodan](#): > > Abortion _per se_ isn’t mentioned in the Bible, because effective abortifacients that didn’t risk killing the mother weren’t really a thing. > > I don’t know of any sermons, specifically, but early Christian writings condemned abortion. So abortions weren’t mentioned in the Bible (including the New Testament) because they were pretty much an unknown thing. But early Christians were aware enough of abortions that they took the time to condemn the practice. Strange that they were so worried about a practice that, according to you, didn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2019, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-bible-say-about-abortion/834043/49 "2019-05-18T04:30:18Z")
Ancient Semitic Law didn’t consider a baby to be ‘alive’ until the first movements in the womb at 4-5 months. This predates Israel and Judah. In many Christian societies, this continued to be the case until the middle ages. The ‘causing an abortion’ thing was also in those laws, decreeing a payment of 10 shekels of silver (a bit less than 1.5 ounces) to the mother for this. For reference, a very poor person in ancient Assyria/Akkad might earn 2 shekels per month. Otherwise, Semitic Law didn’t cover abortion at all. In the Roman era, the only punishment for abortion was in the case of a woman aborting the male child of the Pater Familias, or head of the extended family, in which case she was depriving him of a potential heir. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2019, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-bible-say-about-abortion/834043/50 "2019-05-18T04:34:34Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Abortion _per se_ isn’t mentioned in the Bible, because effective abortifacients that didn’t risk killing the mother weren’t really a thing. Not quite. [Silphium](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silphium) was widely used and traded in the Mediterranean area and was represented by its own glyph by ancient Egyptians and the Minoans. The last specimen was said to have been given to Emperor Nero as a curiosity, as it had been rendered extinct by that time. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2019, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-bible-say-about-abortion/834043/51 "2019-05-18T04:37:19Z")
> [@rsat3acr](#): > > The problem with this is that murder is the unlawful killing, not just killing. Everyone who says abortion is murder is either lying or ignorant. The debate has nothing to do with when life begins. No rational person doesn’t think life begins at conception. \*\*The problem is the delusional folks that believe the zygote has a soul a the instant of conception and therefore shouldn’t be killed. \*\* Of course so many people against abortion are pro death penalty and okay with war. Abortion is really about making people conform to ones religious and/or misogynistic beliefs. Or it could be the delusional folks who believe that souls are an actual thing that the government should be concerning itself with. Or a thing. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2019, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-bible-say-about-abortion/834043/52 "2019-05-18T13:57:00Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Or it could be the delusional folks who believe that souls are an actual thing that the government should be concerning itself with. > > Or a thing. I do not have a soul. I have consciousness, which is a process executed by the brain, and will cease to exist when the brain ceases to function. The soul is a concept developed in a time when we had even less of an understanding of consciousness than we do now. A conscious mind has trouble conceiving that it will ever end, so we have to invent all of these life-after-death scenarios. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2019, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-bible-say-about-abortion/834043/53 "2019-05-18T14:33:50Z")
The anti-aborts I’ve talked to say that abortion wasn’t mentioned in the Bible because the idea of destroying an unborn child was so abhorrent that nobody would even think of writing or talking about it. It would never occur to them to say it shouldn’t be done because everyone knew it should be done. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2019, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-bible-say-about-abortion/834043/54 "2019-05-18T15:08:35Z")
Except that it IS mentioned in the Bible. The interpretation of the passage I quoted is controversial, MOSTLY BECAUSE TODAY, it seems abhorrent, but I think it pretty clearly describes a forced abortion of a bastard fetus. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2019, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-bible-say-about-abortion/834043/55 "2019-05-18T15:10:49Z")
(Oh, the alternative interpretation is that the bitter water kills the woman, not just the fetus. I suppose that’s arguable, but “her thigh drops away” seems awfully specific, and an awful lot like a euphemism for something.) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2019, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-bible-say-about-abortion/834043/56 "2019-05-18T15:35:39Z")
Of course life doesn’t begin at conception. Life begins approximately 3.8 billion years ago. The real issue is people failing to realize that “life” is irrelevant. Yes, a fertilized egg is alive (and “human life”, to boot), and so is an unfertilized egg and sperm, and so is a cancer tumor. And one can envision a thing that _isn’t_ alive, but still deserving of rights (a sufficiently-advanced artificial intelligence, for instance). Life doesn’t matter. Personhood is what matters. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2019, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-bible-say-about-abortion/834043/57 "2019-05-18T15:43:27Z")
Yes. I actually like the use of “soul”, (and “ensoulment”) even though I don’t really believe in the soul as a real thing. But I think that focuses the debate on what matters. Not “is it alive” (of course it is) but “is it the special thing we care about?” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2019, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-bible-say-about-abortion/834043/58 "2019-05-18T15:49:27Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m just responding to what you wrote: > > A pessary is exactly that. A tool that went inside a vagina. Arguing that it wasn’t a tool if it had herbs on it seems pretty weak. > > And can you provide me with a cite for your 99% fatality claim? Because I find that really doubtful. I won’t claim that getting an abortion was risk free - then or now - but any procedure that involved a 99% mortality was essentially murder. Hard to believe any woman, no matter how desperate, would agree to such a procedure. If her intent was suicide, there were easier ways to kill yourself. > > The evidence is that using a pessary to cause an abortion must have been a relatively well known possibility. It was common enough for Hippocrates to specifically mention it. And while it had risks, it appears women figured they had a reasonable chance of surviving the procedure. Not a tool as such a sponge soaked with herbs and such. I guess you could call it a tool, but it wasn a operating instrument. Well, frankly, they just _didn’t do_ a abortion by any means of surgery, it was that fatal. And I wasnt talking about the chance of a woman surviving a miscarriage brought on by a abortifacient- that was dangerous but by no means mostly fatal. I have no idea of what the % was, but it was low enough that desperate women tried it but high enuf the the Hippocratic oath forbade it. WAG-10%? 99% refers to going into the uterus by means of surgical instruments. For example, if was known that women could not survive a c-section back in those days, which is why we know Caesar wasn’t born by one: [The Origins of Caesarian Section | History Cooperative](https://historycooperative.org/the-origins-of-caesarian-section/) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2019, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-bible-say-about-abortion/834043/59 "2019-05-18T17:00:21Z")
Well, if you’d said you were only talking about surgical abortions, and not about abortion in general, I don’t think anyone would have disagreed with you. But the political debate today encompasses all forms of abortion, and chemical abortion was well known in ancient times. Jesus could certainly have addressed it if he felt it was a major issue of the day. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2019, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-bible-say-about-abortion/834043/60 "2019-05-18T17:18:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not a tool as such a sponge soaked with herbs and such. I guess you could call it a tool, but it wasn a operating instrument. > > Well, frankly, they just _didn’t do_ a abortion by any means of surgery, it was that fatal. > > And I wasnt talking about the chance of a woman surviving a miscarriage brought on by a abortifacient- that was dangerous but by no means mostly fatal. I have no idea of what the % was, but it was low enough that desperate women tried it but high enuf the the Hippocratic oath forbade it. WAG-10%? > > 99% refers to going into the uterus by means of surgical instruments. For example, if was known that women could not survive a c-section back in those days, which is why we know Caesar wasn’t born by one: [The Origins of Caesarian Section | History Cooperative](https://historycooperative.org/the-origins-of-caesarian-section/) Then what does this have to do with the topic of the thread? The question was whether people performed abortions and I was producing the evidence that showed they did. The question of whether these procedures were surgical or non-surgical has no relevance to what the rest of us were discussing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-bible-say-about-abortion/834043.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-bible-say-about-abortion/834043.md?page=4)