No, it wouldn’t. They’d still be the majority for at least the next two generations. If the balance tips after that, everybody would have had plenty of time to gradually get used to the prospect.
Unemployment is a major problem in the West Bank, but they’re not even remotely as bad off as most of Sub-Saharran Africa much less Apartheid South Africa.
That would only be true if the Palestinian refugees in Jordan, Lebanon etc. weren’t allowed to come back. If they come in the area becomes predominantly Palestinian.
Anyway, the idea of a one-state solution is completely unworkable and it’s an elitist suggestion rejected by both sides.
Anyone who claims that any significant number of Palestinians want become part of Israel and accept the Jews as their fellow citizens instead of alien invaders is either lying or knows nothing about the Palestinians.
:dubious:
Arabs have had several hundred years to ‘get used’ to Jews living in the area. It hasn’t caught on quite yet.
That’s precisely my point. They cannot viably help us in armed conflict in the Middle East because they would make it more difficult to win. At the same time I hear my leaders talk about our special friendship with Israel in the same way we talk about our relationship with the UK. How many British people have died for us in the past decade versus Israel?
Turkey? Are you serious? 2 more Turkish soldiers have died in Afghanistan than Israeli. The Turkish fight against the PKK was severely compromised mid-decade by our war in Iraq. The American airbase in Turkey has steadily provided supplies to our military in Iraq. Dozens more Turks have been victims of Al Qaeda than Israeli. Turkey is doing a very good job of arresting the AL Qaeda militants. The PM of Turkey is helping to spread the message of democracy and secularism in the Middle East. The NATO early warning system will have radar installations in Turkey. All this, in addition to the regular spending of the Turkish military on our aircraft and helicopters.
Strategically, that’s a hell of a lot better list of benefits than cherry tomatoes.
We’ll see what Egypt does, but I think the best possible outcome with Egypt as a strategic ally will depend on the population’s attitude toward us.
To add: when you read poll of support of terror attacks, the numbers are around 1/3 or more in support. That is a lot of people who are okay with the indiscriminate killing of everyday (Jewish) citizens going about their business or the murder of a family of five (including a girl of 3 months) while they were sleeping…
Here’s one and it contains a question about the Fogel family.
Compared with much lower Israeli support for price tag vandalism (which is not murder):
If there were no Israel in the ME, we’d be there more often.
So you think it’s all right to list Turkey’s military relationship with the U.S. but discredit Israel’s? Uh-huh. I already know how much you love the fact that Turkey opposes Israel having a missile defense system with shared U.S. data. Spreading democracy or spreading destabilization? Erdogan is reckless and egotistical. Does he mind that Israel helped get that technology in the first place?
And Egypt? Hell, they still think they won the* last* war with Israel.
You’ve overlooked or not fully read my post 32 in this thread, where I said
Sorry, no it doesn’t count. Battle plans having the objective of crushing and destroying the enemy is what battle plans are, there is nothing remotely unusual in it. Of course the absence of the phrase “throw/drive them into the sea” disqualifies it from calling for throwing them into the sea. My entire objection was to Terr saying that “if Israel was pushed into the sea - the fervent wish of its neighbors” for which I challanged him to point to these neighbors that have said this since 1967.
“Push Israel into the sea” is an expression meaning the elimination of its borders and/or affiliation of its (Jewish) people. You know this. Don’t be footle.
And after the “challange” you ignored the evidence given to you of the fervency of that wish.
What part of “Again, it’s news to me that Hezbollah is the ruling party in Lebanon.” is unclear to you? Holding less than 10% of the seats in parliament and 7% of the cabinet doesn’t even make them a major member of the ruling coalition. Or is it okay for me to say the Liberal Democratic Party is the ruling party of the UK since it holds 57 out of 1436 seats?
Ah, I see, the army didn’t violently and bloodily disperse them, thus the army and the government were endorsing them. It couldn’t have anything to do with not wanting a bloodbath. I’m curious, if they were being sanctioned by them why the Egyptian government didn’t call for driving Israel into the sea? Also, why are they “private citizens” rather than private citizens? And no, private citizens don’t count as a neighboring country calling for driving the Israelis into the sea. So you’re still 0 for 4. The countries neighboring Israel haven’t been calling for driving them into the sea since 1967, if for no other reason that it isn’t even a remote possibility.
No, pushing Israel into the sea means driving the Jews from the country. You might want to look into the history of the phrase.
You are wondering why the general tenor of the replies has been vague and evasive. It is because you are asking an uncomfortable question. The US is not an intellectual or rationality-driven country and your attempt to fit it in that box will be largely frustrating. Replies come your way because rationality has currency. Hence there is a countervailing feeling that reasons should be made for appearance’s sake. And they are.
Rather it is to do with numerous non-rational factors, so the return on investment is also largely non-rational. Yet to be discussed is the influence of evangelical Christianity, so let’s go there. Simple narrative for the complexity of international relations. “What is the US policy in the ME?” “Israel.” Evangelical Christians know you don’t need no book but one. The ‘simple narrative’ answer comforts them that they have a secure place in the policy making machinery.
There are other non-rational returns on investment but they are largely obvious and well-known. I’m sure you have worked them out yourself.
Now I could do that thing and disassemble the variety of errors, falsehoods and fallacies in the thread so far, using mulitquote even. All to the general consternation of the prejudiced and superstitious readership here present, with Tomndebb along shortly to distort my post into something blameworthy and a bit of drama to boot. Would you like that? Actually, short of time. More later.
They are part of the ruling coalition. That makes them pretty important.
They are part of the government. Thus what they say constitutes is palatable enough to the government to keep them in the coalition.
Yes they have. But you can close your eyes, ears, and hum loudly.
Hey I bet you can’t prove that assertion or even provide evidence for it.
What I am saying is that relative to the negatives of our alliance/cooperation with Israel the positives can be discounted. The same is not true for Turkey or any other country we are allied with. This is particularly true in this time of change in the Arab world coupled with Israel’s complete inability to move the peace process forward.
Look, if you follow Turkey-related news like I do there is a news cycle of “Erdogan the Islamist crazy loon” every year or so. This is just the latest iteration of this tired storyline. In reality, the foreign policy behavior of AKP results in fizzled aspirations (brokering peace between Syria and Israel, or mediating for Iran) or important positive changes (e.g. Arab Spring countries excited about Turkish government). He’s doing a great job of moving the Arab Spring countries to a more Western orientation and it should only be applauded.
It says something that when I saw “What does the U.S. get out of…” on the main page, I thought of Israel before I read the mouseover. And I don’t consciously remember this page being here.
Of course, I am notoriously scornful of US-Israel politics.
:smack: I always thought it meant something involving a whole lot of bulldozers . . .
Or even a plausible reason for it.
…if you drive the Jews from the country, there is no longer an Israel. There is a piece of land with Arab written all over it. I thought that much was obvious.
I’m not aware that people think Erdogan is a crazy Islamist loon. I find him to be more of an egocentric belligerent with a touch of borderline personality disorder. But hey.
What exactly has Erdogan ‘done’ besides make threats against Israel every few days for the last month or two? Arming the next ‘flotilla’ with Turkish naval ships? Crying about Israel’s anti-defense system? Trying to break down the relationship with NATO and Israel via a veto? Yeah. Real progressive. If throwing temper tantrums to deflect from his own errors (Palmer report, anyone?) is ‘moving the Arab Spring countries into a more Western orientation’, dear God, tell me when it’s wintertime and the Turkish flower has been buried.