# what does the word 'liberal' really mean? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 24, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054 "2012-12-24T21:11:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/21 "2012-12-26T03:16:39Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > a self-described ‘liberal’ today shrinks from … the presentation of facts > [@](#): > > the word comes from the latin _liber_, which means ‘book’. Oh delicious irony. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/22 "2012-12-26T03:26:20Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > in ancient Rome, if a slave has freed, he was not just allowed to learn to read and write, but was required to do so. Cite? I know many slaves were literate while slaves – in fact, most of the Roman elite were educated by Greek slave-tutors. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/23 "2012-12-26T03:27:36Z")
You realize there are people not only don’t know that, they don’t give a fuck? Scary, you stop and think about it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/24 "2012-12-26T03:38:04Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You realize there are people not only don’t know that, they don’t give a fuck? Scary, you stop and think about it. Are there? Well, they don’t come 'round **here** much. This is the fighting-ignorance Board. Granted, sometimes ignorance wins . . . “A book is a mirror: if an ape looks into it an apostle is hardly likely to look out.” – Georg Christoph Lichtenberg And so is a messageboard, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/25 "2012-12-26T05:23:15Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > I think it’s ironic that the first 3 liberal arts are grammar, logic, and rhetoric, and yet a self-described ‘liberal’ today shrinks from logic, and the presentation of facts, and of open fair debate. I couldn’t agree more, if by “irony” you mean that your statement is intended to convey the opposite of its literal meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/26 "2012-12-26T05:55:04Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > I think it’s ironic that the first 3 liberal arts are grammar, logic, and rhetoric, and yet a self-described ‘liberal’ today shrinks from logic, and the presentation of facts, and of open fair debate. I’d be interested in seeing you try to defend this thesis in a new thread. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/27 "2012-12-26T07:29:49Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’d be interested in seeing you try to defend this thesis in a new thread. I presume you mean “interested” in the “morbid curiosity” sense. Similar to the impulse that makes you sniff a bad carton of milk before throwing it away. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/28 "2012-12-26T17:27:04Z")
Wow. The OP hijacked her own thread in the thirteenth post. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/29 "2012-12-26T18:11:26Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > What does the word ‘liberal’ really mean? > …not necessarily in a political context… It means very different things to very different people. > [@](#): > > who is a real liberal? To me, a real liberal is one whose politics are based upon individual liberty. > [@](#): > > how would you describe a true liberal? A true liberal should seek equality and freedom, and promote the opportunity for individuals to live the life they see most fit for themselves, constrained only by a prohibition on doing harm to others. > [@](#): > > who are some historical examples of true liberals? Ludwig von Mises, Milton Friedman, John James Cowperthwaite, Friedrich Hayek. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/30 "2012-12-26T18:17:23Z")
Examples of true Conservatives: Thomas Paine, Eugene V. Debs and Woody Guthrie. And I hates Mises to pieces! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/31 "2012-12-26T18:24:12Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Ludwig von Mises, Milton Friedman, John James Cowperthwaite, Friedrich Hayek. No, no, no. “Liberal” != “Libertarian,” not any more. We can only discuss the word meaningfully if we use it in its modern sense. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/32 "2012-12-26T18:29:14Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, no, no. “Liberal” != “Libertarian,” not any more. We can only discuss the word meaningfully if we use it in its modern sense. [Classical liberalism.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classically_liberal) Discuss away. What does it mean to you? That’s the OP’s question, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/33 "2012-12-26T18:31:03Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > [Classical liberalism.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classically_liberal) > > Discuss away. What does it mean to you? That’s the OP’s question, after all. The OP doesn’t mention “classical liberalism”. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/34 "2012-12-26T18:42:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The OP doesn’t mention “classical liberalism”. Correct. It asks four questions: 1. What does the word ‘liberal’ really mean (not necessarily in a political context)? 2. Who is a real liberal? 3. How would you describe a true liberal? 4. Who are some historical examples of true liberals? “Liberal” to me is classically liberal, so I answered accordingly, after allowing that the word is used by varied persons to mean varied things. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/35 "2012-12-26T18:55:29Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > [Classical liberalism.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classically_liberal) > > Discuss away. What does it mean to you? That’s the OP’s question, after all. Actually, what the OP actually wants to discuss is how can we show that the ludicrous caricature of a liberal espoused by Glenn Beck is the way that we want to use the term liberal. YMMV ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/36 "2012-12-26T19:06:05Z")
Seems like in Europe, “Neo-liberal” means someone who espouses the austrian school ideology – Hayek, Von Mises, et al – rather the opposite of its common meaning in the US. So in the end, “liberal” means you (the person calling me a liberal) are too intellectually lazy to discuss/debate/argue anything without resorting to pigeon-holing and name-calling. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/37 "2012-12-26T19:09:58Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Actually, what the OP actually wants to discuss is how can we show that the ludicrous caricature of a liberal espoused by Glenn Beck is the way that we want to use the term liberal. Perhaps. They don’t seem to be in a hurry to elaborate on their remarks. Is there an accepted defintion of the caricature of a liberal? I’d say it’s something like: - Pro-choice - Pro-same-sex-marriage - Hold traditional religion and values in contempt - Socialist, or at least advocates the expansion of the powers of the state - Pro-drug-legalization - Treat their beliefs as religious dogma, and do not tolerate dissent - Soft on crime - Anti-gun, advocates confiscation That’s all I can piece together from a few years of irregular Rush Limbaugh listenership, before I abandoned much of the mainstream conservative agenda. > [@For You](#): > > Seems like in Europe, “Neo-liberal” means someone who espouses the austrian school ideology – Hayek, Von Mises, et al – rather the opposite of its common meaning in the US. So in the end, “liberal” means you (the person calling me a liberal) are too intellectually lazy to discuss/debate/argue anything without resorting to pigeon-holing and name-calling. That’s interesting. Why “neo”, I wonder? I agree on the common American usage. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/38 "2012-12-26T19:14:03Z")
> [@For You](#): > > Seems like in Europe, “Neo-liberal” means someone who espouses the austrian school ideology – Hayek, Von Mises, et al – rather the opposite of its common meaning in the US. It means the same thing in the U.S too. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/39 "2012-12-26T19:19:23Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > [Classical liberalism.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classically_liberal) > > Discuss away. What does it mean to you? That’s the OP’s question, after all. I think Michael Lind nailed that in [this](http://www.newamerica.net/publications/articles/2008/it_ok_be_liberal_again_instead_progressive_8448) article: > [@](#): > > Unlike progressivism and conservatism, liberalism is not a name that implies a view that things are either getting better or getting worse. Liberalism is a theory of a social order based on individual civil liberties, private property, popular sovereignty and democratic republican government. Liberals believe that liberal society is the best kind, but they are not committed to believing in universal progress toward liberalism, much less universal progress in general. Many liberals have been skeptical about the idea of unlimited progress and have believed that a liberal society is difficult to establish and easily changed into a nonliberal society. > > Because liberalism refers to a particular kind of social order, and does not depend on any implied relationship of the present to the past or future, liberals can be either progressive or conservative, depending on whether they seek to move toward a more liberal system or to maintain a liberal system that already exists. For that matter, liberals can be revolutionary, if creating or establishing a liberal society requires a violent revolution. Liberals can even be counterrevolutionary, if they are defending a liberal society from revolutionary radicals, including anti-liberal revolutionaries of the radical right like Timothy McVeigh or Muslim jihadists. See also [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=496350) of mine from 2008, where I discuss that article and discuss what I think is the difference between “liberal” and “progressive.” (My view is a bit different from Lind’s.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/40 "2012-12-26T19:25:48Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > It means the same thing in the U.S too. Indeed it does, except that for some reason we don’t use the word much. Despite the fact that it’s a pretty powerful thing here; [neoliberalism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism) is now the mainstream position of the Democratic Party leadership and has been at least since Clinton took office. The [Democratic Leadership Council](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Leadership_Council) is neoliberal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054.md?page=3)