# what does the word 'liberal' really mean? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 24, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054 "2012-12-24T21:11:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/41 "2012-12-26T19:47:04Z")
Is the Communist Party as it is currently extant in China “liberal” (progressing towards a blended socialist/capitalist economy) or “conservative” (retaining its socialist character while experimenting)? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/42 "2012-12-26T19:49:44Z")
> [@For You](#): > > Seems like in Europe, “Neo-liberal” means someone who espouses the austrian school ideology – Hayek, Von Mises, et al – rather the opposite of its common meaning in the US. > [@marshmallow](#): > > It means the same thing in the U.S too. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Indeed it does, except that for some reason we don’t use the word much. Despite the fact that it’s a pretty powerful thing here; neoliberalism is now the mainstream position of the Democratic Party leadership and has been at least since Clinton took office. The Democratic Leadership Council is neoliberal. Ah, so the neo- is in reference to classical liberalism. Makes sense, though Hayek and von Mises wouldn’t qualify as neoliberal, as **For You** suggests is the case with Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/43 "2012-12-26T19:53:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Is the Communist Party as it is currently extant in China “liberal” (progressing towards a blended socialist/capitalist economy) or “conservative” (retaining its socialist character while experimenting)? I agree with **BrainGlutton** and Michael Lind, that “liberal” should not be paired with “conservative”. Progressive / conservative makes more sense. Thus, China is liberalizing, in that it is granting more individual freedoms. It is doing so in a cautious, conservative manner. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/44 "2012-12-26T19:56:18Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Ah, so the neo- is in reference to classical liberalism. Makes sense, though Hayek and von Mises wouldn’t qualify as neoliberal, as **For You** suggests is the case with Europe. Well, modern libertarianism is also a somewhat different thing from classical liberalism, though it derives from it, and so does modern liberalism. Neoliberalism, I think, differs from libertarianism in being less extreme – no neoliberal wants to abolish the Federal Reserve or adopt a gold-based currency – and in being confined to the economic sphere; there is no neoliberal agenda for decriminalizing drugs, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/45 "2012-12-26T20:06:58Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, modern libertarianism is also a somewhat different thing from classical liberalism, though it derives from it, and so does modern liberalism. Neoliberalism, I think, differs from libertarianism in being less extreme – no neoliberal wants to abolish the Federal Reserve or adopt a gold-based currency – and in being confined to the economic sphere; there is no neoliberal agenda for decriminalizing drugs, etc. Agreed, libertarianism is a descendent of classical liberalism, and thus differs from it in some ways. Neoliberalism probably shouldn’t be compared directly to libertarianism for that reason, one is a whole political platform, the other pretty strictly economic. It should be compared to classical liberalism on one side, and, I suppose, market socialism on the other. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/46 "2012-12-26T20:54:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Is the Communist Party as it is currently extant in China “liberal” (progressing towards a blended socialist/capitalist economy) or “conservative” (retaining its socialist character while experimenting)? Well, not liberal. “Liberalism is a theory of a social order based on individual civil liberties, private property, popular sovereignty and democratic republican government.” The CCP is not progressing towards any part of that but private property. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/47 "2012-12-26T20:59:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, not liberal. “Liberalism is a theory of a social order based on individual civil liberties, private property, popular sovereignty and democratic republican government.” The CCP is not progressing towards any part of that but private property. Right; not liberal, but liberalizing, slowly. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/48 "2012-12-26T23:06:44Z")
So “liberal” is not literally a relative counterpoint to “conservative” but a specific meaning that can encompass some ideals that Americans equate with conservatism? Like, Ron Paul could be so described, but it seems likely that he would bristle at having “Liberal” slapped on him. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/49 "2012-12-26T23:34:39Z")
> [@For You](#): > > So “liberal” is not literally a relative counterpoint to “conservative” but a specific meaning that can encompass some ideals that Americans equate with conservatism? Like, Ron Paul could be so described, but it seems likely that he would bristle at having “Liberal” slapped on him. That is because, in American political discourse, “liberal” has also been hijacked into what the semantic theorist (and U.S. Senator) S.I. Hayakawa called a “snarl word” – expressing a hostile emotion but otherwise semantically meaningless. (There are also “purr words.”) ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/50 "2012-12-27T02:26:45Z")
> [@For You](#): > > So “liberal” is not literally a relative counterpoint to “conservative” but a specific meaning that can encompass some ideals that Americans equate with conservatism? Like, Ron Paul could be so described, but it seems likely that he would bristle at having “Liberal” slapped on him. Exactly so. Nearly all Americans are liberals, to one degree or another, in the classical sense of “in favor of freedom and equality”. Almost all of us agree on free and fair elections of our lawmakers, freedom of the press, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, private property, and so on. I’m sure Ron Paul is aware of the traditional meaning of “liberal”, so if he bristled at the label, it would be a result of the modern American usage, which I took at stab defining in post #37. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That is because, in American political discourse, “liberal” has also been hijacked into what the semantic theorist (and U.S. Senator) S.I. Hayakawa called a “snarl word” – expressing a hostile emotion but otherwise semantically meaningless. (There are also “purr words.”) That’s a fine assessment. I’d say “socialist” is getting there, I hear it ascribed to centrist Democrats fifty times for every one time I hear it used to describe actual socialism. On the left, I think “privilege” and “1%” are getting into “snarl” territory. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/51 "2012-12-27T02:44:07Z")
Mr. Hayakawa’s definition demands that a “snarl word” is semantically meaningless outside of the conveyance of hostility. “Privilege” and “1%” are not meaningless, as they both convey specific ideas. You may not like the ideas they convey, but the very fact that you know you don’t means they are not semantically meaningless. Or, as Wittgenstein once said, nice try. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/52 "2012-12-27T04:19:11Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Mr. Hayakawa’s definition demands that a “snarl word” is semantically meaningless outside of the conveyance of hostility. “Privilege” and “1%” are not meaningless, as they both convey specific ideas. You may not like the ideas they convey, but the very fact that you know you don’t means they are not semantically meaningless. Or, as Wittgenstein once said, nice try. Right, hence “getting into” the snarl-word category, not quite there yet. They do convey specific ideas, but that specificity is becoming secondary to using them as a label to affix to those you disagree with politically. Much like “liberal”. Do you agree on “socialist”? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_E.Nixon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8491ac/32.png) [@Richard\_E.Nixon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_E.Nixon)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/53 "2013-01-03T22:50:30Z")
Liberal means “I hate America and I hate white people.” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/54 "2013-01-04T02:47:15Z")
> [@Richard\_E.Nixon](#): > > Liberal means “I hate America and I hate white people.” I already addressed this silliness in [Post #35](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15833909&postcount=35). Thank you for providing a clear example. (And your namesake would not have made such a risible comment.) ---
**Author:** ![wildorchid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/82dd89/32.png) [@wildorchid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wildorchid)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/55 "2013-01-04T03:04:21Z")
i was mostly interested in emphasizing the non political aspect of the word that tends to get lost, when i feel the word has been hijacked to be used in this fake divide and conquer left vs. right polarity. Its use in political contexts clouds the purer meanings associated with the word, so I thought it is was worth drawing attention to them. the wiki page about classical liberalism talks about its orgins in the 1500’s, and yet John of Salisbury wrote his ‘Metalogicon’ @1150 that goes over the liberal arts. the trivium, and quadrivium were at the core of education back then, and were surely much older. you will notice that kings and queens, who were given special educations would usually be able to play instraments or sing, as music is the 7th liberal art. (Henry VIII; Mary I) [http://www.calameo.com/books/000107044639e1e85b433](http://www.calameo.com/books/000107044639e1e85b433) I would think this would be interesting to people who are into discussing and debating different ideas, because thats exactly what grammer-logic-rhetoric is about. without getting to the rhetoric stage (another word that has adopted only certain connotations), this learning method doesnt fully reach its potential. the process of persausive discussion is part of using the liberal arts to learn any subject, really. It’s almost like a template for learning, or something. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/56 "2013-01-04T03:16:13Z")
> [@Richard\_E.Nixon](#): > > Liberal means “I hate America and I hate white people.” Do you know how the Liberals first came into being? They were Moderates once, taken by the dark powers, tortured and mutilated. A ruined and terrible form of life. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/57 "2013-01-04T03:57:46Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > the wiki page about classical liberalism talks about its orgins in the 1500’s, and yet John of Salisbury wrote his ‘Metalogicon’ @1150 that goes over the liberal arts. That’s because liberalism has nothing to do with the liberal arts. ---
**Author:** ![wildorchid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/82dd89/32.png) [@wildorchid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wildorchid)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/58 "2013-01-06T23:06:33Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > That’s because liberalism has nothing to do with the liberal arts. i disagree, it has everything to do with the liberal arts. how does one become a true liberal if not by the study and mastery of the liberal arts? education used to consist of the study of the liberal arts for 1000 years, and anyone who was considered educated had it under the belt, and could therefore be considered liberal. its not just a coincidence that its the same word. ---
**Author:** ![wildorchid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/82dd89/32.png) [@wildorchid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wildorchid)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/59 "2013-01-06T23:21:33Z")
I produced a book from 1050 AD using the word liberal in describing the liberal arts, w/ the pdf. not sure if anyone has read it? the default meaning, and purest meaning, or definition of a word is the oldest meaning. the meaning, or connotation of a word can change over time, but when in doubt of which definition we are going on, you default to the oldest meaning (unless the context makes it obvious)… for example, the use of the word trivia, as in ‘trivial pursuit’; useless facts; only goes back to the 60’s… before that it meant pertaining to the trivium (meeting of 3 roads) so why can’t liberal mean ‘versed in the arts of grammar, logic, and rhetoric; mathematics, geometry, astronomy, and music’ ?? it would be hard to claim that it can never mean that? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054/60 "2013-01-06T23:29:52Z")
> [@wildorchid](#): > > i disagree, it has everything to do with the liberal arts. > > how does one become a true liberal if not by the study and mastery of the liberal arts? > education used to consist of the study of the liberal arts for 1000 years, and anyone who was considered educated had it under the belt, and could therefore be considered liberal. > > its not just a coincidence that its the same word. :rolleyes: Not coincidence, but not synonymous either. Look, back in the day, a Master of Arts – one who had completed the Trivium and the Quadrivium phases of the [Liberal Arts](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts#History) curriculum – was not necessarily “liberal” in any modern political sense; and could not have been, as no political ideology or viewpoint fitting any political usage of “liberal,” whether libertarian or left-progressive, had yet been conceived. The word “liberal” [was not even **used** in any political sense before the 18th Century.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism#Etymology_and_definition) > [@](#): > > **Etymology and definition** > > Words such as _liberal, liberty, libertarian,_ and _libertine_ all trace their history to the Latin _liber,_ which means “free”.[14] One of the first recorded instances of the word _liberal_ occurs in 1375, when it was used to describe the _liberal arts_ in the context of an education desirable for a free-born man.[14] The word’s early connection with the classical education of a medieval university soon gave way to a proliferation of different denotations and connotations. _Liberal_ could refer to “free in bestowing” as early as 1387, “made without stint” in 1433, “freely permitted” in 1530, and “free from restraint”—often as a pejorative remark—in the 16th and the 17th centuries.[14] > > In 16th century England, _liberal_ could have positive or negative attributes in referring to someone’s generosity or indiscretion.[14] In _Much Ado About Nothing_, Shakespeare wrote of “a liberal villaine” who “hath…confest his vile encounters”.[14] With the rise of the Enlightenment, the word acquired decisively more positive undertones, being defined as “free from narrow prejudice” in 1781 and “free from bigotry” in 1823.[14] In 1815, the first use of the word _liberalism_ appeared in English.[15] By the middle of the 19th century, _liberal_ started to be used as a politicized term for parties and movements all over the world.[16] And, once again: _liber_ meaning “free” and _liber_ meaning “book” were different words in Latin, with different pronunciations and different grammatical desclensions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-the-word-liberal-really-mean/645054.md?page=4)