# What does this anti-abortion poster mean? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 10, 2006, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-anti-abortion-poster-mean/356265 "2006-05-10T20:14:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-anti-abortion-poster-mean/356265/41 "2006-05-11T15:30:46Z")
And on a small informational note in the interests of accuracy, I looked at the poster again today. It was “Planned Parenthood: A Friend of Pedophiles.” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-anti-abortion-poster-mean/356265/42 "2006-05-11T15:46:23Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Actually, 100% of abortions are with the intent of preventing something from reaching the point at which it’s inarguable that it is life, whatever your opinions of whether it is life at the point at which it’s got rid of. So it’s definitely “anti-life” from that point of view. Not true. Some abortions terminate pregnancies in which the fetus is **never** going to reach a point that is inarguably “life”: namely, fetuses with such serious birth defects that they can’t survive outside the womb at all. And some abortions kill a fetus in order to save the life of the mother. I don’t think anyone could call the net effect in such cases “definitely” anti-life. On the other hand, barrier contraception methods are used with the intent of preventing a sperm from fertilizing an ovum, which also prevents the development of something that becomes inarguably “life”. Would you call such contraception “anti-life” too? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-anti-abortion-poster-mean/356265/43 "2006-05-11T15:46:30Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > “Anti-choice” is at least accurate. It describes those who want to remove abortion as a legal choice. By contrast, the imprecation “pro-abortion” is a deliberate and propagandistic distortion of both the issue involved and the position of those it describes. The desire for abortion to remain _legal_ is not equivalent to a position that abortion is desirable or good. Actually, there are people on this board who are pro-abortion, not merely pro-choice, so your assertion is factually incorrect in those cases. [ > [@](#): > > Actually, I do know women who have had abortions and never gave it a second thought. Zip zap zoom problem gone. It’s a much better option that adoption IMO. The world is over populated as it is. ]([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=3740428&postcount=122](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=3740428&postcount=122)) And [ > [@](#): > > think abortion is a beautiful thing. it should be encouraged and rewarded with cash IMO. ]([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=3741482&postcount=127](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=3741482&postcount=127)) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-anti-abortion-poster-mean/356265/44 "2006-05-11T16:07:25Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Actually, there are people on this board who are pro-abortion, not merely pro-choice, so your assertion is factually incorrect in those cases. You aren’t really grasping the point. It’s irrelevant whether _some_ pro-choice people could also be desribed as “pro-abortion” (I am one of them). The term is inaccurate because that subset of pro-choice people is a minority and the term is an inaccurate descriptor of the movement as a whole (You’ll notice that I personally haven’t said that NOBODY is pro-abortion). By contrast ALL anti-abortion rights advocates want to remove the ability for women to legally choose to terminate pregnancies. “Anti-choice” is therefore a perfectly accurate descriptor for 100% of those people. It’s the precise point of contention which defines both sides. _Per se_ opinions on whether abortion is good or bad are tangential to the debate and are not definitive. ---
**Author:** ![Twotwofive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@Twotwofive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twotwofive)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-anti-abortion-poster-mean/356265/45 "2006-05-11T16:20:31Z")
I’m amazed that no one seems to have picked up on Malacandra’s extraordinary assertion that “tolerably few abortions are on account of rape”. Where I come from, just one woman having to compound the torment of rape with the agony of an abortion is one too many. How many rape/abortion cases does Malacandra deem “tolerable”? Is this the caring face of the “pro-life” lobby? ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-anti-abortion-poster-mean/356265/46 "2006-05-11T16:28:42Z")
I think there are 3 stances one can take when it comes to an unwanted pregnancy: 1. Pro-Choice, the mother should have the choice to have the baby live or be aborted. 2. Anti-Choice + Pro-Life, the mother should have no choice, every baby must live. 3. Anti-Choice + Pro-Abortion, the mother should have no choice, every baby must be aborted. I see 99% of people falling into category #1 or #2. So, all three of those terms are valid, Pro-Choice/Anti-Choice/Pro-Life. I don’t know many people that fall into category #3. So that would make the term Pro-Abortion invalid. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-anti-abortion-poster-mean/356265/47 "2006-05-11T16:37:09Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Re: terms > > The thing about this one, and why the symetry holds, is that both sides approach the issue differently, instead of just disagreeing in the sides of a single approach. The pro-abort crowd sees it as a reproductive choice, hense the opposing side is anti this choice, but the anti-abort crowd sees it as a government approved murder of one’s offspring - so the term choice does not fit, but pro abort does. Friend, I would reserve the right to term you “pro-stupidity,” without moderators calling it an insult, on the basis that you are privileged to coin offensive terms to describe those opposed to you on an issue, which you seem to be advocating here. I believe that 99% of the Teeming Millions are completely aware that, in the eyes of the self-styled “pro-life” advocates, the termination of a pregnancy is the immoral taking of a human life. They are therefore opposed to the performing of abortions (rare exceptions to the general principle being duly noted). It is quite possible, however, to believe that someone has the moral duty to carry a child to term, but that it is her privilege to make a free choice on that matter, it being her body which is placed under that obligation, and that lawmakers are not entitled to remove that choice from her. Many **pro-choice** advocates hold exactly that view. _“Pro-abortion”_ is a misrepresentation of their views. As **lissener** duly points out above, laws making abortions illegal will not stop abortions; they’ll simply make them illegal procedures performed under far less safe conditions. It is of course your privilege to poison the well. But you too must drink from the tainted water if you choose to do so. Sincerely, Polycarp Proudly pro-choice, against most abortions, and definitely anti-stupidity ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-anti-abortion-poster-mean/356265/48 "2006-05-11T17:03:22Z")
But I think the essence of the disconnect is why the terms aren’t analogous. If you believe it’s a human rights issue, you will focus on the “right to life”. If you believe it’s a women’s rights issue, you will focus on the “right to choose”. Don’t call me anti-choice if that’s not how I am viewing the issue, in other words. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-anti-abortion-poster-mean/356265/49 "2006-05-11T17:08:17Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > But I think the essence of the disconnect is why the terms aren’t analogous. > > If you believe it’s a human rights issue, you will focus on the “right to life”. > > If you believe it’s a women’s rights issue, you will focus on the “right to choose”. > > Don’t call me anti-choice if that’s not how I am viewing the issue, in other words. It doesn’t matter how you view the issue. If you want that choice to be legally removed then you ARE anti-choice. WHY you are anti-choice is irrelevant to whether the term is an accurate descriptor. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-anti-abortion-poster-mean/356265/50 "2006-05-11T17:12:08Z")
If you don’t think the term “anti-choice” is propaganda motivated, can you think of any other instance where it is used? Are those who are anti-gambling called “anti-choice”? Are those who are anti-gun called “anti-choice”? Are those who are anti-wife beating called “anti-choice”? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-anti-abortion-poster-mean/356265/51 "2006-05-11T17:16:01Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > It doesn’t matter how you view the issue. If you want that choice to be legally removed then you ARE anti-choice. WHY you are anti-choice is irrelevant to whether the term is an accurate descriptor. Imagine a law that would make it legal to kill someone on the street just because you felt like it. Would it be more accurate to describe those who support the law as “pro-murder” or “pro-choice”? They support the right of people to choose whether or not to randomly kill others, after all. Similarly, would it be more accurate to describe those who are against the law as “anti-murder” or “anti-choice”? Claiming that the description “anti-choice” is inarguably the correct descriptor in the current semantic debate is a huge case of begging the question. If you don’t mind that your opinion pre-supposes that the entity being aborted is not a “life”, that’s swell. Just be aware that it does. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-anti-abortion-poster-mean/356265/52 "2006-05-11T17:23:52Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > It doesn’t matter how you view the issue. If you want that choice to be legally removed then you ARE anti-choice. WHY you are anti-choice is irrelevant to whether the term is an accurate descriptor. Perhaps it depends on how widely the question is phrased. If the question is the political debate, or the debate about abortion more generally. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-anti-abortion-poster-mean/356265/53 "2006-05-11T17:27:24Z")
If you want to call anti-domestic violence advocates “anti-choice” go ahead. I don’t care. I don’t think many people will know what you’re talking about, though. “Anti-choice” was a natural result of “pro-choice” which was itself a defensive reaction to being smeared as 'pro-abortion" (or even worse, “pro-death”) by anti-abortion rights zealots. Since the word “choice” as a political signifyer was born specifically out of the abortion debate – and since it legitimately is the defining issue of contention within that debate (it’s _not_ about whether abortion is morally right or wrong, it’s about whether it should be legal) it’s only to be expected that abortion is the issue to which the word “choice” has the strongest association. Everyone knows what the choice is. There isn’t any confusion, and since the appelation “anti-choice” is a 100% accurate as regards one side’s position on that choice, it can’t really be called “propaganda.” It might be a little polemic but it isn’t propaganda if it’s true. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-anti-abortion-poster-mean/356265/54 "2006-05-11T17:38:41Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Imagine a law that would make it legal to kill someone on the street just because you felt like it. > > Would it be more accurate to describe those who support the law as “pro-murder” or “pro-choice”? They support the right of people to choose whether or not to randomly kill others, after all. > > Similarly, would it be more accurate to describe those who are against the law as “anti-murder” or “anti-choice”? > > Claiming that the description “anti-choice” is inarguably the correct descriptor in the current semantic debate is a huge case of begging the question. If you don’t mind that your opinion pre-supposes that the entity being aborted is not a “life”, that’s swell. Just be aware that it does. This is kind of a specious tack but I’ll try to address it again anyway. It would be perfectly accurate to describe those who support the law as “pro-choice” and to describe those who oppose it as “anti-choice.” As long as everyone understands what the “choice” is, then it’s all good. Once again, the abortion debate is only about whether it should be a legal choice, not about whether it’s right or wrong. Those are two different debates and the pro-choice side is defined ONLY by its belief that abortion should remain legal. It does NOT presuppose that everyone who believes abortion should not be criminalized cannot ALSO believe that abortion is morally wrong or that it “takes a life.” My wife thinks that abortion is “wrong” and that it “takes a life” but she also thinks it has to be legal. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-anti-abortion-poster-mean/356265/55 "2006-05-11T17:42:35Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Once again, the abortion debate is only about whether it should be a legal choice, not about whether it’s right or wrong. Right there, you are defining the debate as _you_ see it, which is not how many others define the debate. To many, the debate _is_ about whether it is right or wrong, and that the question of whether it should be a legal choice depends entirely on that matter. Just because you think the two questions should be divorced doesn’t mean everybody thinks they should. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-anti-abortion-poster-mean/356265/56 "2006-05-11T17:54:56Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > Right there, you are defining the debate as _you_ see it, which is not how many others define the debate. To many, the debate _is_ about whether it is right or wrong, and that the question of whether it should be a legal choice depends entirely on that matter. Just because you think the two questions should be divorced doesn’t mean everybody thinks they should. You’re confusing the motivations for a political position with the position itself. The abortion debate is ultimately about _legality_, not morality. It’s completely immaterial how you _arrived_ at your position on legality. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-anti-abortion-poster-mean/356265/57 "2006-05-11T17:57:59Z")
“It’s completely immaterial how you arrived at your position on legality” is a debate-defining opinion, one not shared by all. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-anti-abortion-poster-mean/356265/58 "2006-05-11T18:07:44Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > “It’s completely immaterial how you arrived at your position on legality” is a debate-defining opinion, one not shared by all. Not at all. I don’t know why I seem to be having such difficulty articulating a point which should be obvious. The two sides of the abortion debate are fighting over whether it should be LEGAL. Do you agree or do you think they’re fighting about something else? Is criminalization not the goal of the pro-life movement or do they have some other goal? If the fight is not about legality, then what is it about? If someone thinks abortion is “wrong” but that it should remain legal, which side are they on? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-anti-abortion-poster-mean/356265/59 "2006-05-11T18:15:36Z")
No one denies that the debate is about legality. But for most people it is _also_ about morality, right or wrong. Few debates about law occupy abstract, dispassionate regions where the question of the morality behind the law is brushed aside as irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-anti-abortion-poster-mean/356265/60 "2006-05-11T18:22:39Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > No one denies that the debate is about legality. But for most people it is _also_ about morality, right or wrong. Few debates about law occupy abstract, dispassionate regions where the question of the morality behind the law is brushed aside as irrelevant. What I meant was that it’s irrelevant to how the sides are _defined_. One side wants to be legal. One side wants it to be illegal. Those are the sides. That’s what the fight is about. How each individual _came_ to his or her side of the line does not affect the line itself. Am I starting to make sense yet? I wasn’t saying “morality is irrelevant” to belittle moral positions but to say that it isn’t the factor that decides what side of the line you’re on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-anti-abortion-poster-mean/356265.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-anti-abortion-poster-mean/356265.md?page=4)