# What does this editing thing mean? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 30, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-editing-thing-mean/555651 "2010-09-30T19:46:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-editing-thing-mean/555651/41 "2010-10-06T03:26:33Z")
If we’re going to start nitpicking here, let’s get down and dirty. Properly, the sic inside the brackets is italicized, although the brackets are not. Thus: [_sic_] ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-editing-thing-mean/555651/42 "2010-10-06T03:58:48Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > That’s better, but it’s still overstating things a bit. After all, if you’re quoting speech, it’s usually not realistic to transcribe _anything_ as a parenthetical. People don’t talk in parentheses. I do. I talk like I write here. And I’m pretty sure I’m not unusual. Parenthetical statements are quite common in speech. Any time you go off on a brief tangent in the middle of a paragraph (or even sentence), you are using a parenthesis, even if you don’t actually use the parenthesis marks. And, of course, there’s what I used above, subordinating a clause, which in speech would probably be done by lowering the voice. I actually believe that the perfect paragraphs often written are the more inaccurate transcriptions. Few people talk in what are really paragraphs. The breaks are rarely based on how the person spoke, but on how the topics relate to each other, or just the combined paragraph being too long otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-editing-thing-mean/555651/43 "2010-10-06T05:19:02Z")
I thnk your second paragraph supports my poin. People don’t talk in orderly paragraphs; sontheres really nonsufh thing as a parenthesis in speech. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-editing-thing-mean/555651/44 "2010-10-06T07:22:38Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I thnk [_sic_] your second paragraph supports my poin [_sic_]. People don’t talk in orderly paragraphs; sontheres [_sic_] really nonsufh [_sic_] thing as a parenthesis in speech. [_sic_] ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-editing-thing-mean/555651/45 "2010-10-06T13:43:13Z")
When reading and I encounter a _[sic]_, I’ve always interpreted it as ‘literally’. Similarly, when I see _i.e._, I read it as ‘that is’. And _e.g._, to me that is ‘and others’. I know they’re not literal translations, but it works for me. mmm ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-editing-thing-mean/555651/46 "2010-10-06T14:42:46Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Parenthetical statements are quite common in speech. No, they’re not. Written language and spoken language are not the same thing. Parentheses are an artificial bit of written language created to address a way of making it easy to distinguish sub-clauses from the main idea of a sentence in written lanauge, which doesn’t have the same cues as spoken language (tempo, pitch, pauses, etc.). It’s \*impossible \*to speak a parenthesis, an em dash, a period, an exclamation point, etc. (Unless you want to be a smartass and just say the same of the thing as you talk, which is awkward an unnatural.) ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-editing-thing-mean/555651/47 "2010-10-06T14:45:20Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > When reading and I encounter a _[sic]_, I’ve always interpreted it as ‘literally’. That doesn’t make sense. The point isn’t that something was meant _literally_, but that it was left as-is. > [@](#): > > Similarly, when I see _i.e._, I read it as ‘that is’. Now that’s a literal translation and perfectly accurate. > [@](#): > > And _e.g._, to me that is ‘and others’. This one’s wrong, too. “Et cetera” is “and other things.” “E.g.” is “(a) good example(s).” ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-editing-thing-mean/555651/48 "2010-10-06T14:54:00Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > No, they’re not. Written language and spoken language are not the same thing. Parentheses are an artificial bit of written language created to address a way of making it easy to distinguish sub-clauses from the main idea of a sentence in written lanauge, which doesn’t have the same cues as spoken language (tempo, pitch, pauses, etc.). It’s \*impossible \*to speak a parenthesis, an em dash, a period, an exclamation point, etc. (Unless you want to be a smartass and just say the same of the thing as you talk, which is awkward an unnatural.) SOMEone is not familiar with the pioneering work of Victor Borge. (Google it for your ownself.) re: [sic], see also the Big [sic] Ten [sic] college sports conference. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-editing-thing-mean/555651/49 "2010-10-06T15:15:24Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > Parenthetical statements are quite common in speech. > > No, they’re not. Written language and spoken language are not the same thing. Parentheses are an artificial bit of written language created to address a way of making it easy to distinguish sub-clauses from the main idea of a sentence in written lanauge, which doesn’t have the same cues as spoken language (tempo, pitch, pauses, etc.). It’s \*impossible \*to speak a parenthesis, an em dash, a period, an exclamation point, etc. (Unless you want to be a smartass and just say the same of the thing as you talk, which is awkward an unnatural.) You and **Big T** are talking past each other, and he’s right. The things that in writing we set off in parentheses, with em dashes, with non-restrictive phrase commas, and so on, are what are called _parenthetical statements_ (or _parentheses)_ in rhetoric. They are excursuses, restatements, and so on, intended to clarify and amplify the main statement, added “on the fly” as one thinks of a better way to explain something in mid-statement. When reduced to writing, they call for the _punctuation marks called parentheses_ (or em dashes, commas, diaereses, and so on) to identify them as _parentheses_ in the rhetorical sense of the word. Read that last sentence aloud, and hear the clarificatory nature of the words placed within parenthesis marks – that’s what makes it a parenthetical statement calling for them in writing. And most careful speakers, and many not so careful, will do precisely that – toss in one or more phrases intended to clarify or amplify the purport of their main thought, in the middle of a sentence – in normal speech. If you’ll allow me a little gentle snark without taking offense, you’re taking the (originally specialized) use of the term _parenthesis_ to mean a mark of punctuation that sets off a rhetorical ‘parenthesis’ and assuming it’s the only meaning, much like a computer genius being shown a small rodent and claiming it cannot be a mouse, because it doesn’t have a USB or PS2 cable attached. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-editing-thing-mean/555651/50 "2010-10-06T15:26:31Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > If you’ll allow me a little gentle snark without taking offense, you’re taking the (originally specialized) use of the term _parenthesis_ to mean a mark of punctuation that sets off a rhetorical ‘parenthesis’ and assuming it’s the only meaning, much like a computer genius being shown a small rodent and claiming it cannot be a mouse, because it doesn’t have a USB or PS2 cable attached. Actually, that’s not what I’m doing. I’m saying that parenthesis as a concept properly applies only to written speech or speech that was written in advance. People talking off the top of their heads naturally tend to be all over the place, and thus the concept of parenthesis does not apply to non-prepared speech. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-editing-thing-mean/555651/51 "2010-10-06T15:32:56Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > > [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > > > When reading and I encounter a _[sic]_, I’ve always interpreted it as ‘literally’. > > That doesn’t make sense. The point isn’t that something was meant _literally_, but that it was left as-is. > > Now that’s a literal translation and perfectly accurate. > > > [@](#): > > > > And _e.g._, to me that is ‘and others’. > > This one’s wrong, too. “Et cetera” is “and other things.” “E.g.” is “(a) good example(s).” I need to clarify: When I insert ‘literally’ for [sic], my intent is to tell myself that’s what is actually (literally) written; in other words, it is being _quoted_ literally (accurately). I’m glad I have _i.e._ correct. And I totally screwed up with my statement about \*e.g. \*As a point of fact, I interpret _e.g._ as ‘for example’. It is actually _‘et al’_ that I interpret as _‘and others’_. mmm ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-editing-thing-mean/555651/52 "2010-10-06T15:38:54Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > It is actually _‘et al’_ that I interpret as _‘and others’_. Fortunate, since that’s exactly what it means. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-editing-thing-mean/555651/53 "2010-10-06T17:57:27Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > The things that in writing we set off in parentheses, with em dashes, with non-restrictive phrase commas, and so on, are what are called _parenthetical statements_ (or _parentheses)_ in rhetoric. I’m familiar with the term, but I assumed that it evolved from the name of the punctuation mark, rather than the other way around. Apparently that was a mistaken assumption. However, I \*am \*still correct in asserting that people \*do not \*speak in punctuation marks, parentheses or otherwise, which is the meat of what I was objecting to. People speak in _spoken language_, and punctuation marks were developed as a way of making \*written language \*comprehensible. My point was that while people \*do \*speak in _parenthetical statements_, they \*don’t \*speak in _parentheses_. Someone who has never learned to read or write will still use parenthetical statements in their speech. > [@acsenray](#): > > People talking off the top of their heads naturally tend to be all over the place, and thus the concept of parenthesis does not apply to non-prepared speech. I’d say it absolutely does. Talking off the top of your head is exactly the sort of time when you’d be \*most \*likely to include a parenthetical statement. > [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > And I totally screwed up with my statement about \*e.g. \* I wondered if something like that might be the case. ---
**Author:** ![Ignatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/3be4f8/32.png) [@Ignatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignatz)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-editing-thing-mean/555651/54 "2010-10-07T01:13:16Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Oh, and on the subject of the origin of sic: You can remember that it’s a Latin word meaning “thus” by remembering its inclusion in the phrase “sic transit gloria mundi.” Of course, if you don’t know that expression, it wouldn’t help you much. 😃 Or, _sic itur ad astra_ = thus you go to the stars =Virgil’s _Aeneid_ ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-editing-thing-mean/555651/55 "2010-10-07T20:17:50Z")
**Shot From Guns** said: > [@](#): > > My point was that while people _do_ speak in _parenthetical statements_, they _don’t_ speak in _parentheses_. Seems to me you’re making to much out of the word and not grasping the essence. People do not speak in question marks, either, but they do speak questions. The question mark is a visual indicator for written speech of the intonation used when speaking the question. Parentheses (the marks) are visual indicators for the intonation used when speaking parenthetical remarks. People speak in parenthetical remarks. To argue they didn’t speak the parenthesis is as silly as to argue that someone transcripting comments shouldn’t include question marks because people don’t speak in question marks. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-editing-thing-mean/555651/56 "2010-10-07T21:58:00Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Seems to me you’re making to much out of the word and not grasping the essence. Seems to me you’re not paying attention to what I’m replying to. \*\*acsenray \*\*said “People don’t talk in parentheses,” and \*\*BigT \*\*said that he does, and then went on to talk about _parenthetical statements_. My point was simply the incredibly nitpicky one that people don’t talk in punctuation; rather, punctuation was created to reflect the way in which we speak. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-editing-thing-mean/555651/57 "2010-10-08T05:55:52Z")
People do talk in [Parentheses](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parenthesis_%28rhetoric%29). “While a parenthesis need not be written enclosed by the curved brackets called parentheses, their use principally around rhetorical parentheses has made the punctuation marks the only common use for the term in most contexts.” (from the link) ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-editing-thing-mean/555651/58 "2010-10-08T15:54:33Z")
peopletalkincommastooanddashesandperiodsandquestionmarksandinterrobangsandevenincapitalizationnottomentioncolonsandsemicolonsandhyphensandtheyalsotalkinspellingalthoughsometimestheyellidewordssothattheytalkinspellin [size=1]There are no spaces. I don’t care what the parser does with this[/size-1] ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-editing-thing-mean/555651/59 "2010-10-08T16:11:29Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > People do talk in [Parentheses](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parenthesis_%28rhetoric%29). “While a parenthesis need not be written enclosed by the curved brackets called parentheses, their use principally around rhetorical parentheses has made the punctuation marks the only common use for the term in most contexts.” (from the link) This may be true _in theory_, but I have spent a professional life recording and reporting people speaking extemporaneously and from my experience, it’s clear to me that the concept of parenthesis does not comfortably fit with extemporaneous speech. It requires too much interpretation or editorializing on the part of the person transcribing the speech. It adds too much in the way of implied meaning that is not justified by teh actual experience. In any extemporaneous dialogue, there are constant changes in topic, of varying distance from one might pin as the non-parenthetical topic. Picking and choosing which ones are appropriately transcribed with parentheses (the marks) in writing is simply not appropriate unless the speaker was reading from a text in which the parentheses were pre-inserted. I would not allow anyone working under my supervision to judge for themselves whether some portion of speech was parenthetical or not. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-editing-thing-mean/555651/60 "2010-10-08T16:53:47Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > People do talk in [Parentheses](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parenthesis_%28rhetoric%29). “While a parenthesis need not be written enclosed by the curved brackets called parentheses, their use principally around rhetorical parentheses has made the punctuation marks the only common use for the term in most contexts.” (from the link) \*My interpretation \*of the post I was responding to is that it meant parentheses _in the sense of the punctuation_. Yours is clearly different. For my interpretation, my nitpicking was a valid response. If the person I was responding to were to respond and clarify that he was not talking about the punctuation, then I will happily admit that I misinterpreted him. However, my statement that people do not speak punctuation will still remain accurate; it will simply be out of context. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-editing-thing-mean/555651.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-does-this-editing-thing-mean/555651.md?page=4)