# What? Draft MY baby? War SUCKS! (This one's for you, ladies!) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 10, 2004, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-draft-my-baby-war-sucks-this-ones-for-you-ladies/249588 "2004-06-10T03:04:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-draft-my-baby-war-sucks-this-ones-for-you-ladies/249588/21 "2004-06-10T16:24:23Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Forget the draft, what we _really_ need is a bill that says, for any military action, the folks given priority seating on the front lines are the sons and daughters of our elected officials. 🙂 [http://www.fahrenheit911.com/trailer/](http://www.fahrenheit911.com/trailer/) Enjoy the bit were he tries to get congressmen to get their kids to enlist and go to Iraq 😃 ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-draft-my-baby-war-sucks-this-ones-for-you-ladies/249588/22 "2004-06-10T16:43:27Z")
> [@UncleBill](#): > > Sorry, **mhendo** , my post was directed at the OP, not yours. THERE is the opportunity for the OP to Fight the Good Fight. No problem. I guess, however, that i never really thought that **Tenar** believed the draft was likely to be reinstated. I was focused more on the overarching question of principle that seemed to inform his post, to wit: > [@Tenar](#): > > It’s just that I get really annoyed at people who don’t give any serious thought to the repercussions of ANYTHING until it affects them directly in a negative way. I think that this is a point worth examining, and that the question over the draft is a fairly good way to do it. For the sake of this argument, it doesn’t really matter whether the draft is actually going to be reinstated; what matters is that **Tenar** ’s co-workers believed that it might be, and that this belief shifted their attitude to the current administration and the war in Iraq. You are right, though, that we need to nip rumors about an _actual_ reinstatement of the draft in the bud. The bill presented to Congress was indeed, as you say, basically a protest bill. It’s just not gonna happen. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-draft-my-baby-war-sucks-this-ones-for-you-ladies/249588/23 "2004-06-10T17:04:59Z")
Hijack; I agree with your anti-hypocritical coworkers rant in the OP, but why the addition of ‘ladies this one’s for you’ in your subject line?? Were you soliciting opinions from moms other than your coworkers? (I’m leaning toward thinking THIS is the way you meant it, ) Or was a poorly thought out painting with the same brush of women with kids? You may not have meant it that way, but it kindof had an accusatory tone to it. end hijack ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-draft-my-baby-war-sucks-this-ones-for-you-ladies/249588/24 "2004-06-10T17:12:12Z")
NIMBY syndrome in action. The “typical” middle-class American probably doesn’t even **know** , let alone care, whether foreign soldiers are fighting and dying in some foreign war (that doesn’t involve US troops). They start caring - a little - when it gets closer to home; when American soldiers are involved. If it gets to be The Boy Next Door - hey, it could be **MY** boy next! Pandemonium. I’m not singling out the US here - this is true for any nation (and for any topic - say drug abuse instead of military service). But I have to agree that a good way to make sure wars are not fought frivolously **is** to ensure that the children of the Rich and Powerful are right there, along with the children of the ghetto, on the front line. This can never be achieved by a selective draft, however - the R&P will always find their ways out. This **can** be achieved by **universal service** - every 18 year old does a stint in the military. Maybe 3 years like here (Israel); maybe a year and a half. But it has to be **everybody** - President’s Son included. Because if everyone’s children are in the army, everyone cares, and a politician will not be able to afford the public image of draft-dodging (by self or by children). Where this does not happen, the decision makers remain insulated from the real life facts of young men fighting and dying. Dani ---
**Author:** ![DirkGntly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DirkGntly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkGntly)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-draft-my-baby-war-sucks-this-ones-for-you-ladies/249588/25 "2004-06-10T17:19:46Z")
> [@Tenar](#): > > My coworkers are all in a lather about rumors their kids are bringing home from school about a military draft which is supposedly in the works for 2005. I want to know who originated the rumor at the school. Was it a teacher? Was it another student? Did they have an agenda? If it was a teacher, then the teacher should be responsible enough to make the parties responsible for the legislation known, as in the Snopes link already put in this thread… …the moms immediately blaming GW has the smell of GW being mentioned specifically in the rumor… …kinda important to remember that a president can’t introduce legislation directly… ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-draft-my-baby-war-sucks-this-ones-for-you-ladies/249588/26 "2004-06-10T19:21:32Z")
Right before the first Gulf War, the Seattle Times printed [this column](http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=1103907&date=19901113). It was followed up by [this](http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=1104281&date=19901115) and [this](http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=1107341&date=19901202), not to mention a whole bunch of letters - most of which showed that no, people hadn’t thought about the war until it might be their own butts on the line. ((Registration might be required to read those-but it’s free)) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-draft-my-baby-war-sucks-this-ones-for-you-ladies/249588/27 "2004-06-10T19:49:50Z")
> [@DirkGntly](#): > > I want to know who originated the rumor at the school. Was it a teacher? Was it another student? Did they have an agenda? > If it was a teacher, then the teacher should be responsible enough to make the parties responsible for the legislation known, as in the Snopes link already put in this thread… > …the moms immediately blaming GW has the smell of GW being mentioned specifically in the rumor… > > …kinda important to remember that a president can’t introduce legislation directly… I think you’re overestimating the ability of kids to accurately report to their parents anything they learned in a classroom. If the draft proposal was discussed by a teacher there is no reason to suppose that most kids would really grasp or care about the specifics of the legislative process or that the distinction between legislation and execution would permeate their skulls. I’m guessing it would all get distilled down to “the government” or the even more simple, all purpose “they.” Whatever they heard at school (whether accurate or not) would be rreported at home as “They’re gonna start drafting people for the war.” “Who is?” “The guvvermint.” The government then becomes iconized as “Bush” to the parents. We are generally not talking about a community of brains surgeons after all. Don’t assume the teachers are feeding kids propaganda. The chances are just as good if not better that all nuance and detail simply got washed out in translation. ---
**Author:** ![furlibusea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@furlibusea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furlibusea)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-draft-my-baby-war-sucks-this-ones-for-you-ladies/249588/28 "2004-06-10T22:08:04Z")
> [@](#): > > origianly posted by **Diogenes the Cynic** I think you’re overestimating the ability of kids to accurately report to their parents anything they learned in a classroom. You have that right! I am in the middle of grading an open note essay exam. I have been told that the United States got involved in Vietnam because of some plummers. I have been told that the Pearl Harbor had an atomic bomb dropped on it. I have been told that George W. Bush is a democrat. ( Now of course most of these were from kids who didn’t actually take notes so had hard time using them for the exam) It might be possible to indoctrinate them in some political position, but for the most part, by late high school, the ones that stay awake are so sure they are right about their view of the world that a mere teacher is unlikely to make a dent. ---
**Author:** ![MysteryFellow63427](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e4f/32.png) [@MysteryFellow63427](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MysteryFellow63427)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-draft-my-baby-war-sucks-this-ones-for-you-ladies/249588/29 "2004-06-10T22:30:44Z")
> [@UncleBill](#): > > Fight the Ignorance. MASS email from friend: > [@](#): > > I never would have believed it, but apparently it’s really happening, bush > is trying to push a bill through congress silently, while everyone’s > attention is focused on the election that would reinstate the selective > service as early as 2005. please PLEASE PLEASE write your congresspeople about this, and media representatives. blah blah blah… I wrote her back a politely worded email with the actual facts explaining why her initial instinct not to believe it was correct. About half an hour later I received: > [@](#): > > Well, after many emails from many of you, I am forced to believe, that > while the bills are real, the motives previously stated are bogus. > > I apologize for perpetuating urban myths. > > For more info, check out: > [http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/draft.asp](http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/draft.asp) > [http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/07/rangel.draft/](http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/07/rangel.draft/) I was happy. ---
**Author:** ![Tenar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@Tenar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenar)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-draft-my-baby-war-sucks-this-ones-for-you-ladies/249588/30 "2004-06-11T01:08:17Z")
> [@UncleBill](#): > > You are aware this “draft” legislation is sponsored by two Democrats, Rangel and Hollings, and it is a “protest” bill, it’ll never pass? Bush and the Pentagon DO NOT want a draft. > > [Snopes](http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/draft.asp) > > [S.89](http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:s.89:) > > [H.R. 163](http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:h.r.163:) > > Fight the Ignorance. Thanks! I will most certainly pass these on to my coworkers, several of whom did indeed appear to be brandishing a copy of the mass email to which **Neuroman** referred, and which I myself had not received. I didn’t intend my OP to be a commentary on Bush per se, although I will readily admit that I do not approve of him, nor was I “blaming” Bush for the putative draft, nor was I assuming that the draft would be a reality. As stated, my biggest beef was with the ladies at work. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-draft-my-baby-war-sucks-this-ones-for-you-ladies/249588/31 "2004-06-11T04:04:34Z")
> [@Tenar](#): > > Thanks! I will most certainly pass these on to my coworkers, several of whom did indeed appear to be brandishing a copy of the mass email to which **Neuroman** referred, and which I myself had not received. Once you’ve done so, please let us know whether these frantic moms flip-flop back to being Iraq war supporters. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-draft-my-baby-war-sucks-this-ones-for-you-ladies/249588/32 "2004-06-11T05:22:11Z")
> [@furlibusea](#): > > I have been told that the United States got involved in Vietnam because of some plummers. I can follow the confusion and general threads of misinformation that led to the other “facts” but I can’t twist this one into making sense… “plummers”? ---
**Author:** ![Antonius\_Block](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Antonius\_Block](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antonius_Block)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-draft-my-baby-war-sucks-this-ones-for-you-ladies/249588/33 "2004-06-11T05:45:26Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > I can follow the confusion and general threads of misinformation that led to the other “facts” but I can’t twist this one into making sense… “plummers”? Presumably, Nixon’s Watergate “ **Plumbers** ” (G. Gordon Liddy etc). The Watergate break-in occurred in 1972, during the US involvement in Vietnam. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-draft-my-baby-war-sucks-this-ones-for-you-ladies/249588/34 "2004-06-11T05:49:06Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > I can follow the confusion and general threads of misinformation that led to the other “facts” but I can’t twist this one into making sense… “plummers”? “The Plumbers” was a nickname for the White House Special Investigative Unit, a shady group of fixers and sneaks who worked for Nixon. They are the ones who got busted breaking into DNC offices at the Watergate Hotel and started the whole ball rolling. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-draft-my-baby-war-sucks-this-ones-for-you-ladies/249588/35 "2004-06-11T05:49:59Z")
> [@](#): > > These veterans, though, have largely disappeared. They’ve retired. The veterans in the workplace now don’t exist in anything like the numbers of the previous generations, and they aren’t spread across all jobs like they used to be. Historically, veterans were usually not a major presense in American society. The two periods that were exceptions to this rule were between 1865-1900 and from 1945-1980. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-draft-my-baby-war-sucks-this-ones-for-you-ladies/249588/36 "2004-06-11T06:15:40Z")
Pretty much everyone sensible agrees that a draft is a bad way to expand the military. Economically, it makes no sense to randomly pull people out of the economy where they would have otherwise have been productive, and put them in the military, where they might not be well suited or worth the cost. It makes far more sense to simply increase wages for people in military to hire more people: that way you get what you pay for. And professional volunteers almost always make better soldiers than draftees. ---
**Author:** ![Martiju](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@Martiju](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martiju)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-draft-my-baby-war-sucks-this-ones-for-you-ladies/249588/37 "2004-06-11T12:05:44Z")
> [@Noone Special](#): > > But I have to agree that a good way to make sure wars are not fought frivolously **is** to ensure that the children of the Rich and Powerful are right there, along with the children of the ghetto, on the front line. This can never be achieved by a selective draft, however - the R&P will always find their ways out. This **can** be achieved by **universal service** - every 18 year old does a stint in the military. Maybe 3 years like here (Israel); maybe a year and a half. But it has to be **everybody** - President’s Son included. Because if everyone’s children are in the army, everyone cares, and a politician will not be able to afford the public image of draft-dodging (by self or by children). Where this does not happen, the decision makers remain insulated from the real life facts of young men fighting and dying. > > Dani I think this all makes sense, apart from the fact your example is Israel! You can argue over whether their ongoing conflict is ‘frivolous’ or not, but I don’t think you can deny that aggression is a typical Sharon response to their problems. Perhaps, indeed, the fact that all levels of society are involved in the military actually makes this a more personal issue, with those in power actually having a real claim of revenge. I can see it now: ‘Gulf War III - this time it’s personal!’ ---
**Author:** ![MMI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-draft-my-baby-war-sucks-this-ones-for-you-ladies/249588/38 "2004-06-11T12:23:39Z")
To play devils advocate, one could argue that the (completely hypothetical, nevah-gonna-happen) reinstatement of the draft changes the overall picture for these people in ways other than merely threatening _their_ children. The war they were promised in Iraq was to be quick, painless, (almost) bloodless, easy, and require only a brief commitment of troops and almost no money. In return for some volunteer soldiers spending a couple of months in Iraq the world would become better, safer, and more democratic, with chocolate chip cookies for all. If the draft were reinstated it would be an indication that _right now_ we are in way over our heads in Iraq, rather than largely command of a difficult situation as the administration’s public statements indicate. If one interprets the draft as a plan to send good money after bad, then I could understand how it might change one’s view of the war, without necessarily indicating bad faith. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-draft-my-baby-war-sucks-this-ones-for-you-ladies/249588/39 "2004-06-11T14:18:38Z")
> [@Martiju](#): > > I think this all makes sense, apart from the fact your example is Israel! You can argue over whether their ongoing conflict is ‘frivolous’ or not, but I don’t think you can deny that aggression is a typical Sharon response to their problems. And I _so_ wanted to keep this thread **away** from becoming another ME one! ☹ But since it’s been hijacked already… I think that the Universal Draft **is** , ultimately, what got us out of Lebanon, and it is also what will get us, albeit kicking and screaming for some, out of Gaza. As slowly moving as the process is right now, it would be far worse if our military were **not** representative of the whole population! > [@](#): > > Perhaps, indeed, the fact that all levels of society are involved in the military actually makes this a more personal issue, with those in power actually having a real claim of revenge. More personal, yes. But not necessarily about revenge. It’s more about **understading** [It means that some (OK, in our case _many_) of the leaders are ex-military brass (and nearly all understand what it means to be a soldier - or a soldier’s parent)] as well as about plain old **electoral considerations** [It also means that their constituency (y’know, the people they want to vote for them?) are all either military, ex-military, parents of soldiers or all of the above.] Dani ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-draft-my-baby-war-sucks-this-ones-for-you-ladies/249588/40 "2004-06-11T16:20:47Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Pretty much everyone sensible agrees that a draft is a bad way to expand the military. Economically, it makes no sense to randomly pull people out of the economy where they would have otherwise have been productive, and put them in the military, where they might not be well suited or worth the cost. A modifier to that phenomenon would be “College deferment” (which was protested against, since it led to something that looked a lot like “Operation Get Behind The Darkies”). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-draft-my-baby-war-sucks-this-ones-for-you-ladies/249588.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-draft-my-baby-war-sucks-this-ones-for-you-ladies/249588.md?page=3)