# What effect did voter-ID laws have in the 2012 election? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 22, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-did-voter-id-laws-have-in-the-2012-election/664243 "2013-07-22T20:08:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-did-voter-id-laws-have-in-the-2012-election/664243/21 "2013-07-24T12:42:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, yes. If you have a secret ballot, you cannot ask any voter to look at her ballot the next day and verify that is how she cast it. But there is an inexpensive technology which will print out the ballot from the touchscreen, move it under a pane of glass where the voter can see it and verify it, and then scan it, and deposit it in a sealed box. If there’s any dispute about the vote-count on that machine, the election officials can open that box and do a hand-count. That defeats any attempt to rig the count by hacking or viruses or hidden programming or whatever. The only way to beat this system would be old-fashioned ballot-box stuffing, by hand; which, as always, can only happen if the election officials are in on it, and there are ways to watchdog them. I would absolutely favor the use of such a system. Although that sounds like a bunch of moving parts, so I’m not sure how inexpensive it really is, nor how prone to breakdowns. But from an audit and surety perspective, that’s the right stuff. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-did-voter-id-laws-have-in-the-2012-election/664243/22 "2013-07-24T16:31:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I care. That’s why I favor Voter ID. As the Supreme Court ruled in _Crawford v. Marion County_, that a very legal law. And as various judges have blocked it in more than one jurisdiction, its legality is in question at best. Plus, there’s legal, and then there’s abso-fucking-loutely-no-evidence-to-support-its-reasoning. As it has been repeated to you many times, voter fraud happens so little that its irrelevant, and often done by Republicans trying to prove some point, and lead to actual voters being disenfranchised. But I guess as a conservative, if you can’t win at the polls, stop people from going to the polls :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-did-voter-id-laws-have-in-the-2012-election/664243/23 "2013-07-24T16:44:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So at the precise time when confidence is needed most – a razor-thin victory – is also the precise time that voter fraud has the most chance of changing a result. Note to all that \*\*Bricker \*\*has never expressed any similar concerns over the effect on confidence of vote-\*counting \*fraud, or registration-cancellation fraud, which in fact were the issues in Florida 2000, his own chosen example. \*Voting \*fraud? Not a single bit, not then or ever or anywhere. The “confidence” he’s concerned about is, as is obvious to anyone else and perhaps himself too, is confidence that the people he wants to win do win. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-did-voter-id-laws-have-in-the-2012-election/664243/24 "2013-07-24T16:49:26Z")
Time to link [this](http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/pictures/the-voter-fraud-myth-debunked-20120612) yet again. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-did-voter-id-laws-have-in-the-2012-election/664243/25 "2013-07-24T17:42:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So at the precise time when confidence is needed most – a razor-thin victory – is also the precise time that voter fraud has the most chance of changing a result. And is of course also the time that voter disenfranchisement efforts has the most chance of changing the result. Usually by a factor of 100 or more. But then we’ve been through this repeatedly. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-did-voter-id-laws-have-in-the-2012-election/664243/26 "2013-07-24T17:56:00Z")
But its possible! And to paraphrase Sherlock Holmes, when you remove everything that is impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, means **Bricker** is right. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-did-voter-id-laws-have-in-the-2012-election/664243/27 "2013-07-24T18:46:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So all the claims that insisting on voter ID would decrease minority turnout are…? What? Based on the experience we had with Voter ID laws from 2008 until the voter suppression became widely publicized and created backlash. > [@](#): > > I don’t care one way or the other. For me, the issue was about confidence in the result. If minority turnout increases, as long they’re valid voters, that’s fine. That’s what representative democracy is all about. So you would be OK with a voter ID requirement that only accepted food stamp cards, college IDs and ID cards that are freely available at any certain pawn shops and check cashing establishments? Right? > [@Bricker](#): > > I care. That’s why I favor Voter ID. As the Supreme Court ruled in _Crawford v. Marion County_, that a very legal law. > [@Bricker](#): > > I disagree. The spectre of voter fraud is, in fact, extremely rare, but the chances of it affecting a race are not uniformly rare. > > Where the problems arise is a very close race – Florida in the presidential election of 2000, or Washington State’s governor’s race in 2006. Both of those races were decided by less than 1,000 votes. > > So at the precise time when confidence is needed most – a razor-thin victory – is also the precise time that voter fraud has the most chance of changing a result. > > There’s nothing artificial about that concern. Right, because fraudulent in person voting was the problem in Florida:rolleyes: Has there been a federal race in our lifetime where the voting was close enough to have been affected by in person voter fraud? Why are irrational fears a proper basis for undermining voting rights by even one scintilla? You might as well cite gun violence generally to justify an assault weapons ban. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-did-voter-id-laws-have-in-the-2012-election/664243/28 "2013-07-24T18:52:16Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > ,You might as well cite gun violence generally to justify an assault weapons ban. ENOUGH already with the AWB!! Dear God, man, have pity! There’s a Pit thread about vegemite, have you found a way to shoehorn the AWB into _that?_ Sweet Baby Jesus, man, give it a rest! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-did-voter-id-laws-have-in-the-2012-election/664243/29 "2013-07-24T19:15:50Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > And as various judges have blocked it in more than one jurisdiction, its legality is in question at best. Not really, no. As a matter of federal law, the Voter ID scheme used in Indiana is completely and utterly legal. That’s a fact. There’s nothing in question about it. Other states have enacted other, slightly differing schemes. They may or may not pass muster. What states do you contend have problematic laws, specifically? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-did-voter-id-laws-have-in-the-2012-election/664243/30 "2013-07-24T19:17:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Time to link [this](http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/pictures/the-voter-fraud-myth-debunked-20120612) yet again. Time to remind you that I identified flaws in that study again. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-did-voter-id-laws-have-in-the-2012-election/664243/31 "2013-07-24T19:19:54Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Why are irrational fears a proper basis for undermining voting rights by even one scintilla? Listen carefully: in a representative democracy, _you, personally, don’t get to decide what the proper basis for a law is._ You also don’t get to decide what is, or is not, irrational. I suggest engraving that on a bracelet, in the manner of a medic alert reminder. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-did-voter-id-laws-have-in-the-2012-election/664243/32 "2013-07-24T19:51:58Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But voter-ID laws were enforced in some states. What effect did they have? Who, eligible to vote or ineligible, was turned away from the polls? Who got a provisional ballot, and which provisional ballots were discounted and which were discarded? Who was too discouraged even to show up at the polls? Have there been any studies? Still unanswered. Nobody knows? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-did-voter-id-laws-have-in-the-2012-election/664243/33 "2013-07-24T19:54:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Time to remind you that I identified flaws in that study again. Missed that. Please repeat. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-did-voter-id-laws-have-in-the-2012-election/664243/34 "2013-07-24T19:56:27Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Why are irrational fears a proper basis for undermining voting rights by even one scintilla? > [@Bricker](#): > > Listen carefully: in a representative democracy, _you, personally, don’t get to decide what the proper basis for a law is._ > > You also don’t get to decide what is, or is not, irrational. That is the most pathetic, irrelevant, embarrassing, lameass, fumbling dodge of a nonanswer you have posted here in a very long time. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-did-voter-id-laws-have-in-the-2012-election/664243/35 "2013-07-24T21:12:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Missed that. Please repeat. No, you didn’t miss it. But sure, what the hell: The study identifies known instances of voter fraud, and in each cases announces, “None of these cases would have been affected by the use of photo ID.” But that’s not correct. The presence of a Photo ID requirement means that a legally sufficient case for fraudulent voting can be made. You may remember I linked, as an example, to the case of Ramon Cue in Miami. Mr. Cue is not eligible to vote. Yet records show he repeatedly voted. But because he denied it, and there was no requirement for Photo ID, there’s no real way to convict him – and his case does not show up on the list of confirmed voter frauds. That’s a main flaw of the conclusions of the Brennan Center study. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-did-voter-id-laws-have-in-the-2012-election/664243/36 "2013-07-24T21:14:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That is the most pathetic, irrelevant, embarrassing, lameass, fumbling dodge of a nonanswer you have posted here in a very long time. Ad hominem. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-did-voter-id-laws-have-in-the-2012-election/664243/37 "2013-07-24T22:14:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Ad hominem. No, it isn’t. Read for comprehension. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-did-voter-id-laws-have-in-the-2012-election/664243/38 "2013-07-24T22:20:45Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, yes. If you have a secret ballot, you cannot ask any voter to look at her ballot the next day and verify that is how she cast it. But there is an inexpensive technology which will print out the ballot from the touchscreen, move it under a pane of glass where the voter can see it and verify it, and then scan it, and deposit it in a sealed box. If there’s any dispute about the vote-count on that machine, the election officials can open that box and do a hand-count. That defeats any attempt to rig the count by hacking or viruses or hidden programming or whatever. The only way to beat this system would be old-fashioned ballot-box stuffing, by hand; which, as always, can only happen if the election officials are in on it, and there are ways to watchdog them. **Bricker** and I have disagreed (fairly noisily) about Voter ID in the past (I generally feel that the burden it places on an individual in order to be able to exercise their franchise is objectionable), but I do recall a thread where we both agreed that fingerprinting voters would be an acceptable solution. Here in Nevada, we do have the paper trail in (at least some of) our voting machines, and although I like it less than a fringerprint or other biometric ID, it is vastly preferable to an unaccountable voting machine. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-did-voter-id-laws-have-in-the-2012-election/664243/39 "2013-07-24T22:30:07Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, it isn’t. Read for comprehension. And then **answer the motherfucking question.** ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-did-voter-id-laws-have-in-the-2012-election/664243/40 "2013-07-24T22:34:55Z")
Successful vote-suppression measures are bad for Democrats and democracy. Unsuccessful or partially-successful attempts at them can be good for Democrats, and can be good for democracy if one doesn’t count the danger of them actually being successful. > [@](#): > > Quoth **Bricker** : > > Listen carefully: in a representative democracy, you, personally, don’t get to decide what the proper basis for a law is. > > You also don’t get to decide what is, or is not, irrational. Quite the contrary: Any form of democracy depends critically on each and every voter personally deciding both of those things. We don’t get to personally decide what the laws actually are, but we absolutely do decide what they should be. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-did-voter-id-laws-have-in-the-2012-election/664243.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-did-voter-id-laws-have-in-the-2012-election/664243.md?page=3)