Are these people also prevented from traveling, getting work, or opening bank accounts? Isn’t it a matter of social justice that people without ID be allowed to do these things?
The topic of this threat is more in the nature of civic justice, as it were. But social justice depends on it. See Dahl’s Polyarchy.
Don’t get excited, comrades. I am pretty sure this is his version of irony and sarcasm. My equipment registers 19 millihicks, or five points below Dennis Miller.
Yes. I think it’s too hard to get ID with or without voter ID laws. Voter ID makes it more serious, but getting rid of voter ID doesn’t get rid of the problem altogether.
While these threads often contain inaccuracies about what people need ID to do, it is getting harder and harder to perform basic tasks without ID, yet it’s also getting harder and harder to get ID. One of those things needs to change.
Which is why the only states that have voter ID laws that withstand court scrutiny are those where it’s either easy to get a voter ID, or alternative forms of ID are accepted. In Pennsylvania, they are giving photo voter ID cards at no cost.
The argument that an ID requirement can be a form of poll tax has merit. The argument that voting should just be easy and no one should ever have to be inconvenienced to do so has none. At least not as far as our Constitution and laws define the right to vote.
I do not consider the Pennsylvania “free” ID card to be easy to get or free.
It is free, and it is easy, although it doesn’t have to be easy to satisfy current federal law. Just not onerous, and since it’s easier to get than a regular state ID, it’s definitely not onerous. As a general rule, you can’t call what the vast majority of people do as a routine matter an onerous task.
What I mean by “easy to get” is that the entire thing should be easy to get for anybody, not just that the final plastic card should be easy to get for people who have several identifying documents already. I have no doubt that the Pennsylvania “free” voter ID card is easy to get for some people. Yes, if you already have a birth certificate, a Social Security card, and two documents proving your residence, it’s easy for you to convert that into a Pennsylvania ID card. But it’s a given that people with ID find it easy to get ID. I’m talking about the other people.
According to your cite, all they have to do is give information and it gets checked with the voter rolls.
Oops, yes, I see that the first half is enough to get a voting-only ID card. I thought that was just to qualify for the fee waiver for the “secure ID.” That’s a lot better than what I thought they were doing.
So let me get this straight just so I know what your numbers represent. You are claiming that at least in Pennsylvania, somewhere between 150K and 250K people are absolutely UNABLE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES to get the appropriate ID. So you’re saying that it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to go to DOT and sign a paper claiming they are who they say they are?
Remember, you side is not claiming they don’t have ID, but that they cannot possibly get ID. So you are representing that that many people in Penn. CANNOT get ID?
Nobody’s claiming that it’s absolutely impossible for them to get ID. The claim is that the additional burden of obtaining an ID will be sufficient deterrent to prevent a large number of people from voting. The first-order estimate of this number is the number of people who currently lack ID. Now, the true number is probably less than this number, since some people who lack incentive to get ID now will get one once voting depends on it. It’s not a great estimate. Still, we must compare it to the estimates of the number of cases of voter fraud that would be prevented by such measures. Here, the proponents of the laws usually can’t give us even poor estimates, and when they do, their estimates are generally many orders of magnitude smaller than the estimates of the number disenfranchised.
Here, I’ll make it simple for you, and put the ball entirely in your court. You give us any estimate at all backed up by any reasoning you like, of the amount of decrease in turnout of otherwise-legitimate voters due to voter ID laws. Then, give us a similar estimate of the number of fraud cases that would be prevented by such laws. Can you show that there’s any estimate of the latter number that’s greater than any estimate of the former number? Surely, you agree that the burden of proof to do this is on your side, since your side is the one that thinks we should have no law without a clear justification that it is necessary and appropriate, and you’re proposing this new law.
El-Oh-Fucking-El! I knew you couldn’t actually debate the numbers, so you erect a straw man of epic proportions so you can try to tear it down! 
Read post again and this time, don’t assume I’m saying anything in there that doesn’t show up in the actual post. There’s a reason why I didn’t say it was impossible to get under any circumstances, and there’s a reason why it STILL can disenfranchise people.
And where’s my pie? :dubious:
Is there any difference between a voter that can get an ID but doesn’t, and one that can’t?
Well, elucidator? You asked, I answered, now I am asking you. Have you ever changed your mind after evidence showed you were wrong? Is there some evidence of that?
So having to go to the DMV is a deterrent to voting? Gee, so is having to register to vote before voting. Wait a minute, what am I saying? Democrats even want to do away with that and just let people register the day of the election!
If only Democrats were as interested in removing barriers to things people actually need to do to live, especially where the barriers are imposed by the government. But there’s no political advantage to that, so it’s unimportant.
Depends on the DMV. Some are a quick in and out, others you’re looking at hours.
Depending on the location and the hours the office is open, it means taking time off from work, maybe a babysitter or taking the baby/toddler with you on a fun filled bus trip with multiple transfers each way.
Sorry, you don’t get to ask any more questions until you answer questions previously asked of you.
And let’s not forget that some states, at the same time as trying to implement voter ID laws, simultaneously closed down DMV offices in urban areas, leaving residents of those areas no good way to get to the office.
You mean things they need to live like, oh, say, health care, or food, or shelter? Because programs to make those more accessible to people are all supported by Democrats, and opposed by Republicans.
This argument has been overwhelmed by intervening facts: that Republicans, where they have the power to do so, are ih a full-court press to keep their political opponents from gaining votes, and are entirely shameless about the means they use to obtain their goal. Their methods are beneath the dignity of a sewer rat.
Barry Goldwater would puke his guts out.