It is certain that voter fraud in the sense of an impersonator or legally ineligible person casting a ballot is a nonproblem, and the rare instances where it happens are simply noise in the signal, their effect on the outcome unpredictable, and certainly those votes are not sought by either party despite conspiracy theories to the contrary, and requiring voter ID would fix nothing that’s broke.
But I admit it is hard to answer the arguments that presenting ID when you vote just seems right, is done in many countries, you have to present ID to do a lot of other things so what’s the big deal, etc., etc.
But the biggest problem with this nonissue is that it all diverts attention from what’s really wrong with the American electoral system – hyperfederalization, partisan administration, incompetent administration, irregularity of procedures and practices, underfunding and obsolete equipment, etc., etc. etc. The world’s oldest existing republic after Switzlerland and San Marino should be able to do all of this right by now! :mad:
Actually for me BrainGlutton the argument that’s hard to answer is if you don’t have ID, isn’t voting pretty low on the list of concerns. There are so many life activities that require ID like driving, getting a job, verifying a credit card for a purchase, cashing a check etc. that I think the focus should be “How do we get them ID to function in life.” and not “They need ID to vote.”
An undetected illegal vote disenfranchises a voter ONLY if it changes the outcome of an election.
An improperly turned away vote disenfranchises many voters if it changes the outcome of an election–to the exact same degree as illegal votes do–AND it immediately sends a message from the government to the citizen: you don’t count. In addition, then, to the highly unlikely outcome of changing an election (as happened in Florida in 2000, if you were around back then), it also directly affects and harms the voter turned away, by telling them that they’re not an important member of society.
But even if you were right, then we ought to play a numbers game. Any proposed solution that results in more eligible voters being unable to vote than it prevents ineligible voters from voting should be rejected.
That’s clearly not what’s happening. Quixotic “but I just want to help keep things clean” protestations aside–whether they’re honest or disingenuous–it’s overwhelmingly obvious that the Republican movement to restrict voting is being done for partisan purposes. There’s a belief that sufficient disenfranchisement of the population will allow a minority opinion to hold sway in our country. That’s borderline treason, a slap in the face to our country’s ideals.
Let’s not get carried away. It is a slap in the face to our country’s ideals, but “Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.”. Trying to disenfranchise vast swaths of voters just because they disagree with you, despicable though it is, is not levying war against the US, nor aiding and comforting our enemies, not even borderline.
Wouldn’t such sincerity and honorable intent be reflected in the legislative effort? Programs of outreach, improved and expanded voter registration drives coupled with an effort to make getting such ID as easy and convenient as possible? Lots of ways to do that, which ones did the Republicans choose?
I have the whole list right here: zero, zilch, zip, and nada damn thing. If I missed any of them, here’s your chance.
Not to excuse the Pubs but what have the Dems done to help other than pass a law saying you can claim to be a citizen and that is good enough. And you forget that although I am a fiscal conservative I am also a social progressive Pub so there’s a lot with my party I disagree with and I agree with you that on social issues the party is a fuckup. For example I support voter ID but there should be a system in place ensuring everyone can get photo ID.
You Dems should do that and steal the next election
Well, the main thing the Dems have done to help is to oppose laws designed to disenfranchise vast swaths of the eligible electorate. Some of us think that’s a pretty good thing to do.
You see no value in making sure the public knows the voter ID drive is based on a cynical, anti-democracy Republican lie? It’s OK to let it become accepted as fact?
If supporting a respect for factuality is now “impotent”, we’re in pretty deep trouble.
You know what? If the Dem side is limited to rhetoric with no action in getting people ID, then yes there is no value in it. If your side truly feels the way it does it doesn’t matter WHY the laws are there. Stop talking and DO something.
No action? The action is in preventing or reversing these Jim Crow laws themselves, starting with educating their supporters as to their true nature. Apparently you haven’t noticed.
Welcome to the radical lefty club. Though we find your presence somewhat confusing, I am sure we can find a spot for you on the couch…
But won’t we need to pass some sort of legislation? Pass it in the same Republican throttled states that are going forward with this nasty bit of strategery? How do you propose we get their cooperation?
The Republicans are not interested in expanding the availability of voter ID, they are interested in discouraging the wrong sort of people from voting. If Dems had the power to insist that they provide voter ID and make it easily accessible, they would have had the power to stop them in the first place. If the Dems had the power in those states to insist on a cure, there wouldn’t be a disease.
You can’t shame a cynic, SC. They don’t have the capacity to be ashamed.
Why pass a law? I don’t know of a state where you need to show ID to register to vote so wouldn’t the DNP have a list of all registered Democrats? Contact each one that didn’t vote in the last election with a business reply envelope asking if they have photo ID. At least it’s a start
And if the Republican state legislatures are willing to do all this shit to get their way, why wouldn’t they change that as well? What’s going to stop them? Scruples?
Pissing and moaning is not usually an effective strategy, but in this case, it has its points. Getting the word out, for starters. Making people mad enough to give a shit. Get 'em off their asses.
Wait?! Are you actually saying the Republicans could pass a law disallowing a political party to send mail to members of their party? It would take about 3 minutes for a Judge to rule it unconstitutional based of freedom of association and/or free speech (1st Amendment). So give me another reason you Dems don’t get off your butts and do something beyond piss and moan.
No, he means that the Republicans would pass new laws making it more difficult for the Democrats to get those names and addresses. In this case, most likely by putting stupid and irrelevant barriers in place at the point of registering to vote, instead of putting them at the point of voting itself.
I know what he meant and I also know that such a law would not remotely pass constitutional muster. There is no way a law could prevent an organization from knowing who their members are. Second, laws that make it harder to register would be thrown out for conflicting with a Federal law that is so liberal, you don’t even have to prove you’re a citizen to register - just say you are. Quite literally, if all 11 million illegal immigrants wanted to register to vote tomorrow and had no ID to even prove what their name was, there’s nothing the Pubs could do to stop it.
Wow I never thought about that. So I guess doing nothing about it except sitting on the sidelines and bitching about it is the best strategy. :rolleyes:
