# What Effect Will Trump's Concentration Camps have on his reelection campaign? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 19, 2019, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738 "2019-06-19T12:15:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 41
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/801 "2019-08-12T19:33:47Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Well I’m sure the Right would never stereotype the Left … I’m pretty sure people on both sides of our political spectrum do it, and I agree with **sps49sd** that it’s usually not helpful or good. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/802 "2019-08-12T19:35:39Z")
I believe the word ‘horrified’ was used. Seems like it was a selective horror, that’s all I was noting. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/803 "2019-08-12T20:13:45Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > _Do you find it helpful to generalize and treat people as groups?_ > > Whoa! > > That exact kind of thinking is used far too often to justify wrongs, and should help show you that you could be wrong. > > “if you assume that the average _person wearing a hoodie_ is \* planning to shoplift \*, you will typically end up with a more accurate picture of what’s going on” > > Do you see? > > Your statement scares me, frankly. Yours is a bad analogy,as you are equating two unrelated things. A fix to your analogy would be “if you assume that the average _person arguing that shoplifting should be legal_ is planning to shoplift ,you will typically end up with a more accurate picture of what’s going on” ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/804 "2019-08-12T20:31:49Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > _Do you find it helpful to generalize and treat people as groups?_ > > Whoa! > > That exact kind of thinking is used far too often to justify wrongs, and should help show you that you could be wrong. > > “if you assume that the average _person wearing a hoodie_ is _planning to shoplift_, you will typically end up with a more accurate picture of what’s going on” > > Do you see? > > Your statement scares me, frankly. On the other hand: “If you assume that the average _person with a swastika armband_ is _a violent fascist who isn’t actually particularly interested in free speech regardless of what he’s saying_, you will typically end up with a more accurate picture of what’s going on.” One of these is an accurate statement based on the facts already in evidence. The other is a bullshit racist stereotype. You do realize that when talking about Trump supporters, we aren’t starting with a blank slate, or even a slate so vague as “wears a hoodie”, right? I’ve found, in my interactions with those on the right wing, that the _overwhelming_ ethos when confronted with the atrocities of the administration is to find some excuse, any excuse, to not have to think about it. “Obama ran camps too!” - okay, it was wrong then and it’s wrong now, why should this make it better? “They broke the law!” - okay, and therefore they deserve to be put in these conditions/sent to their deaths/separated from their families? “It’s their parents’ fault!” - their parents are the ones who locked them in cages? This misdemeanor is worthy of this punishment? “You’re a hypocrite because X, Y, or Z!” - Okay, so I’m a hypocrite - what does this have to do with the preventable human suffering we’re inflicting on these people? Is your (bullshit) belief that I don’t really care reason for you not to? At no point does any of this require an acknowledgement of the cruelty and suffering going on. At no point does it demand a reckoning. You see this again and again and again. It doesn’t make much sense outside of that framework. But once you see it… The excuses make a lot more sense. Also, speaking of things that are “scary”, how do you feel about the concentration camps at our southern border? ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/805 "2019-08-12T21:17:28Z")
NO. You are making assumptions about individuals based on how you group them. If you don’t see that is has always been wrong to do so, or that it is okay because someone else has done it, then you are closer to those you despise than you know. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/806 "2019-08-12T21:22:45Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > NO. > > You are making assumptions about individuals based on how you group them. If you don’t see that is has always been wrong to do so, or that it is okay because someone else has done it, then you are closer to those you despise than you know. Do you assume that all flat earthers are approaching an argument in good faith? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/807 "2019-08-13T04:43:05Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > First, he wasn’t sentenced to death. He was deported under the current laws of our country. > > Second, I am assuming you disagree with the law that says those legal immigrants who commit certain crimes may be subject to deportation. If that’s accurate, when do you think this law should not apply, or should it not apply ever? It seems like this has been the law of the land for some time, if that makes a difference in your assessment. Bone, have you never heard of proprietorial discretion? Its a thing. Its been around for a while and yet we have not devolved into anarchy. Yes the prosecutor had the legal authority to send him to a place where he had no chance of survival. Similarly a [traffic cop](https://www.espn.com/nfl/news/story?id=4017382) has the right to pull over a person who is trying to reach his mother in law before she dies and make him wait while he writes out the ticket. But by most ethical systems both are worthy of condemnation. You can stick to your guns and state clearly that you believe that in this instance justice was best served by the death of a person who committed a combination of petty thievery and their parents having brought them into the country illegally. That is your choice and while I may look on you as less of a person for believing this, your morality is your choice and I can’t argue with it on objective grounds. But to refuse to acknowledge your morality regarding this by claiming no miscarriage of justice can be condemned so long as it is within the law, is a cop out. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/808 "2019-08-13T05:55:07Z")
I’ve stated before - what happened was a bad outcome. But anytime there is a law on the books, people may die over it’s enforcement. That’s the nature of laws. And I’m well aware of prosecutorial discretion. I’ve started at least one thread about it. Allowing discretion means that you’d be okay with deporting some mentally ill criminals who have been in the country virtually since right after birth. Because if you’re not okay with that sometimes, then you’re not actually in favor of discretion. The reason why morality is such a lazy easily dismissed cop out is because it can be used as a cudgel against anything. Everything I believe is moral, and anything you disagree with is a moral failing. But that’s not argument, that’s witnessing. I’m not religious, so that’s noty cup of tea. And while I have great sympathy for those who suffer from mental illness, I’m not sure how comfortable I am if that illness could be deployed as a shield to immunize people from penalty they would otherwise earn. And none of this addresses the host country’s responsibility. It’s knee jerk, something bad happened so the US is like Nazis. I think the pros and cons can be weighed in circumstances like this, but once appeals to emotion and immoral Nazis are bandied about, I don’t take anything that follows very seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/809 "2019-08-13T06:11:09Z")
The law is the law, and I don’t take anything you say seriously. Well, that’s that. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/810 "2019-08-13T06:41:25Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I’ve stated before - what happened was a bad outcome. But anytime there is a law on the books, people may die over it’s enforcement. That’s the nature of laws. And therefore it’s okay to just take it, accept it, and move on, even when the outcome is so obviously batshit crazy as to send a man to die in a country he’s never lived in? Good god, man. > [@](#): > > The reason why morality is such a lazy easily dismissed cop out is because it can be used as a cudgel against anything. Everything I believe is moral, and anything you disagree with is a moral failing. But that’s not argument, that’s witnessing. I’m not religious, so that’s noty cup of tea. The sad thing is that he complained earlier about nazi comparisons… If you cannot appeal to basic morality, like “maybe we shouldn’t send people to their deaths for petty crimes”, where does that leave you when the government does something monstrous? What can you possibly appeal to to complain that the government is committing mass murder, or (more realistically) if people start dying en masse in the concentration camps? Economics? By ceding morality completely in a case where the issue is clearly a moral one and the problem is clearly the harm being done, you’ve ceded all the ground that is necessary to [go nazi](https://harpers.org/archive/1941/08/who-goes-nazi/). Because you’ve ceded _all the ground_. You’ve abandoned any ability to talk about whether the law is right or not, and simply accepted it as something unchangeable. Would it be more moral if, for example, upon someone turning 18, if they have lived in the USA for more than 12 unbroken years, they automatically become a naturalized citizen, thus avoiding the absurd and obscene case where a man is “sent back” to a country he’s never lived in and whose language he has never spoken to die on its streets? How could you possibly say? You’ve given up any tools to have that discussion! It’s just “witnessing”. Would it be more or less moral if we cut the hands off of anyone convicted of petty theft? How could you possibly say. **Bone** , this is, at its core, a discussion about morality. About the government doing things that are legal but also grossly immoral and reprehensible. If you aren’t willing or able to talk about morality, maybe you should find a thread about the maths of the marginal tax rate or the effect of housing policy or something, and leave this to those of us who are willing to push our morality further than “well, the law says”. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/811 "2019-08-13T07:32:31Z")
Could just go with, anyone who doesn’t share my morality is a Nazi. That’s the same quality of argument. ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/812 "2019-08-13T08:11:35Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Could just go with, anyone who doesn’t share my morality is a Nazi. That’s the same quality of argument. Then you debate that morality. In this case, we’re debating the morality of exiling a man to what is, to him, a foreign country due to the sins of his parents. While he was a (petty) criminal, the punishment was all out of proportion to his crimes due to something that was beyond his control - being brought to the country as a child. I believe that is morally indefensible. Your defense is that it is legal, and therefore acceptable. _That_ is the question being debated at the moment. That said, your argument appears to be that “if it is legal, then it is right” - which has been used to defend Nazi/fascistic laws and behaviour. Am I misunderstanding your line of reasoning? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/813 "2019-08-13T08:16:13Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Could just go with, anyone who doesn’t share my morality is a Nazi. That’s the same quality of argument. I just cannot for the life of me figure out what objections you’d have if asylum-seekers started ending up in mass graves with a bullet to the head, as long as it doesn’t affect you personally and was technically “legal”. Can you explain it without “witnessing”? :rolleyes: All it takes to go from “Sure, we sent him to his death in an absurd and cruel way, but it’s legal and I don’t have to care” to “sure, a lot of people in those camps are dying, but it’s legal and I don’t have to care” is to keep finding reasons not to care - something you seem pretty good at. Did you read that Harpers piece I linked? It’s old - really old - but a classic. It doesn’t take much to accept the unthinkable. Just the banality of evil and a willingness to not care. Most nazis never killed anyone. They just accepted their neighbors disappearing. Go ahead, though - prove me wrong. Give me a reason you’d oppose genocide that isn’t “witnessing”, or retract this toxic, noxious bullshit: “Arguing morality to me, is a fool’s errand and I leave it to religious zealots.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/814 "2019-08-13T09:37:24Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I’ve stated before - what happened was a bad outcome. But anytime there is a law on the books, people may die over it’s enforcement. That’s the nature of laws. > > And I’m well aware of prosecutorial discretion. I’ve started at least one thread about it. Allowing discretion means that you’d be okay with deporting some mentally ill criminals who have been in the country virtually since right after birth. Because if you’re not okay with that sometimes, then you’re not actually in favor of discretion. > > The reason why morality is such a lazy easily dismissed cop out is because it can be used as a cudgel against anything. Everything I believe is moral, and anything you disagree with is a moral failing. But that’s not argument, that’s witnessing. I’m not religious, so that’s noty cup of tea. > > And while I have great sympathy for those who suffer from mental illness, I’m not sure how comfortable I am if that illness could be deployed as a shield to immunize people from penalty they would otherwise earn. > > And none of this addresses the host country’s responsibility. It’s knee jerk, something bad happened so the US is like Nazis. I think the pros and cons can be weighed in circumstances like this, but once appeals to emotion and immoral Nazis are bandied about, I don’t take anything that follows very seriously. Well you would have had plenty of company among white people had you not taken MLK Jr. seriously due to his penchant for making “appeals to emotion”. And I take it you rolled your eyes at the “appeals to emotion” made by gay rights advocates in recent years, too, based on your last few posts. Is that accurate? If not, then I really don’t understand your position at all. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/815 "2019-08-13T14:05:41Z")
I think the intellectually lazy argument is the one that goes “Well, the law says what the law says and moral outrage is an appeal to emotion”. Under that logic, Martin Luther King should have just stayed home. Sure Jim Crow laws have bad outcomes for some people, but the law is the law and MLK’s majestic oratory was just appealing to emotion. Rosa Parks should have just stayed in the back of the bus instead of just appealing to emotion. Slavery was the law of the land and abolitionists were just appealing to emotion. No, laws do not exist in a vacuum. A law that on the surface seems just but leads to horrific suffering out of all proportion to the violation should be changed or ignored on the basis of affronts to morality. Maybe the Nazis had the law on their side when they slaughtered millions of Jews. I’m sure Goebbels would have said that being morally offensive was irrelevant and scoffed at any outrage was just based on appeal to emotion. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/816 "2019-08-13T14:08:48Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > The reason why morality is such a lazy easily dismissed cop out is because it can be used as a cudgel against anything. Everything I believe is moral, and anything you disagree with is a moral failing. By the same measure, we should do away with guns, cars, or anything else that could be used as either a literal cudgel, or much worse, against anybody. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/817 "2019-08-13T14:28:29Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I think the intellectually lazy argument is the one that goes “Well, the law says what the law says and moral outrage is an appeal to emotion”. Aside from the valid point that you raised, I want to point out that conservatives are not actually following ‘the law says what the law says’. For example, the camps themselves violate numerous laws and court orders regarding treatment of detained people, and consistently try to dodge laws restricting how they can mistreat people. When enforcing laws, ICE will raid and arrest a lot of workers who are illegal immigrants, but I have yet to see a raid seize managers, CEOs, and owners who are engaged in the illegal practice of hiring illegal immigrants. If rich white guys were being held in concentration camps and were being arrested when poor brown workers are, ‘the law says what the law says’ could at least be a plausible offense. But I haven’t heard of a single millionare having their kids taken away for gross immigration law violations, so I don’t buy it. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/818 "2019-08-13T15:24:48Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > And therefore it’s okay to just take it, accept it, and move on, even when the outcome is so obviously batshit crazy as to send a man to die in a country he’s never lived in? Good god, man. Who said it was okay? I’ve said multiple times that it wasn’t a great outcome and I’d be fine if the law were to be changed. Somehow because I’m not morally outraged or don’t see this as the downfall of the republic you equate that with being okay with it. But that’s not sufficient, no. Insufficient outrage must be like Nazism, or slavery, or genocide. If I didn’t know better, I would assume this was a put on, but sadly I don’t think it is. Let’s try a different approach. On your list of priorities, how high does this rank among laws that should be changed? Would you say changing this law to allow criminals who are legal resident aliens to be immune from deportation is more important to change than say, universal health care? More important than increasing minimum wage? More important than universal background checks for gun purchases? If any other item is more important, would it be fair to say that the lack of weight you put on this is just as bad as the Nazis? > [@](#): > > **Bone** , this is, at its core, a discussion about morality. About the government doing things that are legal but also grossly immoral and reprehensible. And here I thought it was a thread about the effect on Trump’s reelection campaign. This idea of morality wasn’t brought up in earnest until iiandyiiii introduced it in post #762 and #763. There were some mentions of morality prior to that, but the discussion was ongoing for quite some time before it took a turn towards morality. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/819 "2019-08-13T15:56:49Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > This idea of morality wasn’t brought up in earnest until iiandyiiii introduced it in post #762 and #763. Are you fucking kidding here? Jesus. At least we’ve gotten to the heart of the disagreement – our understanding of the word “morality” (not our concepts of morality, but the actual meaning of the word) is worlds and worlds apart. Morality has been a huge part of this discussion from the OP, at least by my understanding of the word. Dozens (if not hundreds) of posts and posters going back to the very first page have referred to right, wrong, morality, morals, etc. It’s also been about politics, but morality has been a huge part of this discussion. This disconnect is what I’m trying to get to the bottom of – and you’ve repeatedly been ignoring my questions about Civil Rights and gay rights. Do you believe CR and gay rights leaders attempted to appeal to morality and/or emotions? If so, do you believe this was a counterproductive tactic? IMO, there was no chance of success without such tactics. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/820 "2019-08-13T16:26:45Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > And here I thought it was a thread about the effect on Trump’s reelection campaign. We settled that in the first few posts: it won’t have any effect. Ever since then, it’s been about either the policy itself, or about the use of ‘concentration camps’ to describe the facilities the refugees are kept in. Please do try to keep up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738.md?page=40) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738.md?page=42)