# What Effect Will Trump's Concentration Camps have on his reelection campaign? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 19, 2019, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738 "2019-06-19T12:15:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 44
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/861 "2019-08-14T18:49:00Z")
They come from shithole countries, definitely. Their parents are endangering them by makng them cross deserts. How does a guard know that kids is actually family? So, putting them in cages with their famillies would be acceptable? > [@](#): > > Ah the party of Family Values … Gotta love it. Does this mean you’re in favor of more children being put in danger? > [@](#): > > “Trafficked” or being sent by desperate parents to a place where they have a hope of survival? What do you mean by “trafficked”? Who benefits? Trafficked. Bought and sold (or rented) to improve your chances of being accepted. It’s usually and aggravating fact that, whle doing an illegal action, you put a minor in danger. [QUOTE] > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Yes, let’s leave it aside. In fact, why would you even bring it up? Even if it were entirely 100% true in both text and subtext, why would it be remotely relevant? Assuming Obama did exactly what Trump is doing now for exactly the same reasons, what does that imply? Really think it through. Would it make what’s going on even one iota less horrible? Would it make the moral response to what’s going on different? OK. > [@](#): > > Seriously, I want you to ask yourself. Why did you bring this up? Why should it matter to anyone, save perhaps those trying to assess Obama’s political legacy (a question nobody has asked in this thread)? Because I’m evil. > [@](#): > > Because [I have a theory](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21796260&postcount=713). I don’t like your theory and dismiss it as easily as you proposed it. > [@](#): > > Y’know, I’m not an expert on immigration. I don’t have good answers to these questions. But I have to ask - why are you asking this? Is it about actually finding solutions? Yes, none have been presented here. Definitley one of my proposals would be to disincentivize endangering minor on your way to the US. > [@](#): > > It took me all of about five seconds to find [this article](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21796260&postcount=713) detailing alternatives. They’re out there. There are absolutely options other than “separate families and hold children in concentration camps”. Effective ones, for purposes of “effective” you might care about. There are 15 links in that post. Which is the one you think solves the problem? But… they don’t matter, because the people running this program aren’t looking for effective, non-cruel solutions. [We know that this is a new policy designed to be cruel as a deterrant](https://www.justsecurity.org/61621/proof-surfaces-family-separation-deterrence-punishment/). It’s not an easy problem, but the Trump administration _is not looking for solutions_. People who have been paying attention to this issue are aware that the problem is not and never has been “We don’t have a way to solve this other than child separation”. _The cruelty is the point_. I’m all for deterring people from putting minors (their own or otherwise) in danger. Which of your solutions or appeals to pity reduces the number of children endangered by adults? > [@](#): > > Maybe you don’t know any of this. Maybe you’re wading into this discussion without any of that context, or indeed, any real background knowledge on the subject at all. But you’ll have to excuse me if I read this as yet another attempt to find a reason not to care. “It’s not that bad, and even so, they don’t really have a choice, they _need_ to do this.” It sounds less like “how can we do better?” and more like “how could we _possibly_ do better?”. And I really gotta wonder - do you _honestly_ think that [this](https://s.abcnews.com/images/Politics/el-paso-detention-center-01-ht-jc-190531_hpMain_1x1_1600.jpg) is the best we can do? _ **Really** _? I’m not so I avoided the lecture. > [@](#): > > Maybe I’m just projecting. But none of this is new information, and at this point even giving the administration the benefit of the doubt to the degree you have is deeply suspect. Yes, you are. You favor putting children in danger and benefitting people who traffick children under the excuse of “sending them to a better place.” > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > That earlier post was \*by way of \*asking him. No response yet. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/862 "2019-08-14T19:03:08Z")
They’re not separating families to protect children. The administration stated the real reason why on multiple occasions – they see value in harming families and children for deterrent purposes. The administration purposefully separated families because they saw value in separating families. It was to deliberately harm families and children for deterrent purposes. By their own words. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/863 "2019-08-14T19:15:14Z")
Just two questions for you, **Aji** , arising from all that contemptuous and contemptible nonsense you just posted: > [@](#): > > Their parents are endangering them by makng them cross deserts. \*Why \*do you think they’re doing that? > [@](#): > > Trafficked. Bought and sold (or rented) to improve your chances of being accepted. Upon what information do you think that is happening? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/864 "2019-08-14T19:24:49Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Yes, you are. You favor putting children in danger and benefitting people who traffick children under the excuse of “sending them to a better place.” Well you favor torturing and killing children. See we can both make ridiculous claims. How is that helpful for this conversation though? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/865 "2019-08-14T19:30:05Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Trafficked. Bought and sold (or rented) to improve your chances of being accepted. From [NBC News](https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/experts-cast-doubt-dhs-claim-traffickers-are-posing-families-border-n885241), June 2018: > [@](#): > > Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen said at a White House press briefing on Monday that between October and February there had been a more than 300 percent rise in the number of cases where “minors have been used and trafficked by unrelated adults in an effort to avoid detention.” > > But a review of department data and interviews with officials, immigration lawyers and advocates show that it’s unclear how much of a surge this was — or whether these crimes were as ominous as Nielsen suggested. > > According to Department of Homeland Security spokeswoman Katie Waldman, that 315 percent spike equaled 145 more cases — up from 46 from October 2016 to September 2017, to 191 in the first five months of this fiscal year. Nielsen previously called this surge in fake families “staggering.” > > Yet those 191 cases represent just half of 1 percent of the roughly 31,000 people who illegally crossed the border during those five months, department data shows. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/866 "2019-08-14T19:41:38Z")
[While Trump attempts to deter immigrants, traffickers and victims who are already here have been slipping through the cracks.](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/02/human-smugglers-thrive-under-trumps-zero-tolerance/583051/) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/867 "2019-08-14T23:38:23Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > But someone of \*your \*credentials and accomplishments and contributions gets to stay here due to an accident of birth. Life sure is funny, huh? Back off on making this personal. We have a functioning BBQ Pit forum. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/868 "2019-08-15T10:34:36Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > But… they don’t matter, because the people running this program aren’t looking for effective, non-cruel solutions. [We know that this is a new policy designed to be cruel as a deterrant](https://www.justsecurity.org/61621/proof-surfaces-family-separation-deterrence-punishment/). It’s not an easy problem, but the Trump administration _is not looking for solutions_. People who have been paying attention to this issue are aware that the problem is not and never has been “We don’t have a way to solve this other than child separation”. _The cruelty is the point_. > > I’m all for deterring people from putting minors (their own or otherwise) in danger. > Which of your solutions or appeals to pity reduces the number of children endangered by adults? > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Because I’m evil. … ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/869 "2019-08-15T12:26:02Z")
“Appeals to pity”? Appeals to _humanity_. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/870 "2019-08-15T14:11:36Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > “Appeals to pity”? Appeals to _humanity_. They are usually called appeals to emotion, and represent a logical fallacy. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/871 "2019-08-15T17:06:21Z")
If you’re peremptorily dismissing the relevance of basic morality, perhaps you could enlighten us as to what fundamental principles you \*do \*base your position upon. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/872 "2019-08-15T17:41:03Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > If you’re peremptorily dismissing the relevance of basic morality, perhaps you could enlighten us as to what fundamental principles you \*do \*base your position upon. So what principle(s) of basic morality are you basing your argument on? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/873 "2019-08-15T17:51:57Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > So what principle(s) of basic morality are you basing your argument on? I believe there is already a question on the table. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/874 "2019-08-15T18:10:19Z")
And the answer is not “no u”. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/875 "2019-08-15T20:49:45Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > If you’re peremptorily dismissing the relevance of basic morality, perhaps you could enlighten us as to what fundamental principles you \*do \*base your position upon. Cold Vulcan logic. Of course. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/876 "2019-08-15T20:51:53Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And the answer is not “no u”. "Yes, well, I’m polymerized tree sap and you’re an inorganic adhesive, so whatever verbal projectile you launch in my direction is reflected off of me, returns to its original trajectory and adheres to you.” - S. Cooper ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2019, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/877 "2019-08-16T14:44:08Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > So what principle(s) of basic morality are you basing your argument on? What do you base our laws on? Everything comes down to a moral question at some point, and the point of laws is to attempt to codify our morals into a legally enforceable structure. If you cannot use morals to decide that not murder is better than murder, then how do you justify laws about homicide or violence. If you cannot use morals to show that not stealing is better than stealing, then how do you justify laws on property rights? All laws are based on morality, so to then say that you don’t care about morality, only the law, is to have it backwards. If the law serves morality, if the law attempts to reflect the morality of the people. then that is a path towards egalitarianism. If morality serves the law, if morality is defined by what is legal and illegal, then that is a path towards totalitarianism. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2019, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/878 "2019-08-16T15:18:09Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > What do you base our laws on? > > Everything comes down to a moral question at some point, and the point of laws is to attempt to codify our morals into a legally enforceable structure. > > If you cannot use morals to decide that not murder is better than murder, then how do you justify laws about homicide or violence. If you cannot use morals to show that not stealing is better than stealing, then how do you justify laws on property rights? > > All laws are based on morality, so to then say that you don’t care about morality, only the law, is to have it backwards. > > If the law serves morality, if the law attempts to reflect the morality of the people. then that is a path towards egalitarianism. > > If morality serves the law, if morality is defined by what is legal and illegal, then that is a path towards totalitarianism. I believe laws come from morality in many cases. I just know that the set of axiomatic principles that comprise a moral code are in fact axiomatic. Secondly, moral codes are not universally shared. I’m willing to argue morality but in doing so there will be irreconcilable differences that will arise. Ultimately, those are resolved via force. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2019, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/879 "2019-08-16T15:49:55Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I believe laws come from morality in many cases. I just know that the set of axiomatic principles that comprise a moral code are in fact axiomatic. Secondly, moral codes are not universally shared. I’m willing to argue morality but in doing so there will be irreconcilable differences that will arise. Ultimately, those are resolved via force. They are most successfully and peacefully resolved through a representative democracy. Obviously, at some times, force is required, as society’s disapproval of murder may not reconcile with Crazy Eddie’s approval of murder. No, morals are not universally shared, but we have come up with a framework that most of us can agree to mostly. It is the edge cases that get argued back and forth, not the 90% of what we agree on. And I would think that sending a mentally ill person off to die painfully and alone in a foreign country should be something that falls into that 90%, and that those who will accept or even cheer such a result are in the extreme minority. This should not be an edge case, concentration camps shouldn’t be edge cases. We should be arguing whether the small number of immigrants who need to be detained should be getting 20 or 30 square feet of room each, that’s the sort of thing that doesn’t fall into the part that everyone should be agreeing on. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2019, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/880 "2019-08-16T15:52:40Z")
Yeah I’m not gonna lie, if sending a mentally ill homeless person off to near-certain death in a foreign country they’ve never lived in _isn’t_ something that disgusts you, I’m not really interested in debating morality with you, any more than I want to debate morality with someone who is about to shoot up a mosque. You have found excuses to be cruel, and I don’t really want to try to explain why something is wrong to someone who is that far gone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738.md?page=43) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738.md?page=45)