# What Effect Will Trump's Concentration Camps have on his reelection campaign? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 19, 2019, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738 "2019-06-19T12:15:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/161 "2019-06-21T01:51:37Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > They aren’t concentration camps, as I explained, and I don’t support Trump regardless. They are, and this “no true scotsman” crap has to stop. Kids are dying in there, and we’re still out here playing with words. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/162 "2019-06-21T02:07:26Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > They are, and this “no true scotsman” crap has to stop. Kids are dying in there, and we’re still out here playing with words. No true scotsman? That’s goddamn ridiculous. My whole point is that you are the guys “playing with words”. Ok, tell me does the textbook/historical definition of genocide not include forced removals? Would you think that we could not round up some historians who would pronounce that deporting 400,000 immigrants is technically a genocide? A little over 400,000 was Obama’s top year. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/163 "2019-06-21T02:16:31Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’d like to hear how you think the conversation would go: > > “Hi, I’d like you to vote for the Democrat candidate so we can stop travesty going on at the border in the concentration camps…” > > “Wait, we have concentration camps at the border? We are forcing people to work until they die, we are deliberately starving them, we are executing them?” > > “No, not that. But holding people in dangerous conditions while they wait to be processed” > > “So, we are not deliberately killing them? Doesn’t sound like concentration camps to me.” > > “They are. Here are some sites to historians that say they meet the classical definition of concentration camp that was used up until 1945 and when you…” > > “Whatever. Let me know when we start deliberately killing people.” …is that how you typically talk to your friends and family? Have you honestly gone up to your brother and said "“Hi, I’d like you to vote for the Democrat candidate …” Because that isn’t how I talk to people I know. But you do you. I’m much more likely to send them a link to a tweet like this: [https://twitter.com/KatzOnEarth/status/1141155185835819009](https://twitter.com/KatzOnEarth/status/1141155185835819009) And I’d explain to them that we don’t know if this is typical or not because there is zero real oversight of any of these camps. That these people were held like this for weeks. That congresspeople have been denied access to many of these camps, and we don’t even know where all of the camps are. I’d talk to them the same way I’m talking to you, the same way I’m talking to everyone else who are reading this thread but not commenting. I am perfectly aware that you are going to argue with me and debate me because that is what you do. But my goal isn’t to convince you just as AOC’s goal isn’t to convince the people who will instinctively defend the status quo no matter what the reality is. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/164 "2019-06-21T02:23:07Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > No true scotsman? That’s goddamn ridiculous. My whole point is that you are the guys “playing with words”. > > Ok, tell me does the textbook/historical definition of genocide not include forced removals? Would you think that we could not round up some historians who would pronounce that deporting 400,000 immigrants is technically a genocide? A little over 400,000 was Obama’s top year. …I can’t find a single textbook/historical definition of genocide that fits the way you have defined it. Which one did you use? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/165 "2019-06-21T02:58:42Z")
Boy, you searched all those textbooks quick. Do you think the Trail of Tears was a genocide? ---
**Author:** ![str8cashhomie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7cd45c/32.png) [@str8cashhomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/str8cashhomie)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/166 "2019-06-21T03:07:15Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Boy, you searched all those textbooks quick. Do you think the Trail of Tears was a genocide? The Trail of Tears is probably not a good example for your claim that you don’t need mass murder for a genocide: [Trail of Tears - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears#Statistics) ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/167 "2019-06-21T03:15:18Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Boy, you searched all those textbooks quick. Do you think the Trail of Tears was a genocide? …are there specific textbooks you are referring too that you want me to look up? My question to you was “which one did you use?” So are you going to answer that question so that we can quickly resolve this? In what way is the Trail of Tears comparable to Obama’s administration deporting people? And can you find any historian that would agree with you on that comparison? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/168 "2019-06-21T03:19:04Z")
@str8cashhomie No, I do know it’s called “The Trail of Tears” for a reason. Part of the reason why we’re calling these places “concentration camps” is the deaths that have happened? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/169 "2019-06-21T03:22:34Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > No, I do know it’s called “The Trail of Tears” for a reason. …so you can’t provide a cite? > [@](#): > > Part of the reason why we’re calling these places “concentration camps” is the deaths that have happened? They are calling these places concentration camps because they fit the definition of concentration camps, and because a number of historians concur that they fit the definition. That information is all provided in the OP, as well as by various posters throughout the thread. It has nothing to do with any “deaths” in the camps. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/170 "2019-06-21T03:27:16Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …are there specific textbooks you are referring too that you want me to look up? My question to you was “which one did you use?” So are you going to answer that question so that we can quickly resolve this? > > In what way is the Trail of Tears comparable to Obama’s administration deporting people? And can you find any historian that would agree with you on that comparison? I guess what I was thinking of was a little more specialized, “ethnic genocide”, which I guess doesn’t get a lot of respect in the genocide community. Probably better described as “ethnic cleansing”, so I guess I concede this line of discussion unless you have something else to ask or say. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/171 "2019-06-21T03:31:48Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I guess what I was thinking of was a little more specialized, “ethnic genocide”, which I guess doesn’t get a lot of respect in the genocide community. Probably better described as “ethnic cleansing”, so I guess I concede this line of discussion unless you have something else to ask or say. …fair enough. “Ethnic cleansing” would have been a better analog, I still would have disagreed with you, but probably not as vehemently 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![str8cashhomie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7cd45c/32.png) [@str8cashhomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/str8cashhomie)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/172 "2019-06-21T04:05:55Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > @str8cashhomie > No, I do know it’s called “The Trail of Tears” for a reason. Part of the reason why we’re calling these places “concentration camps” is the deaths that have happened? No, the main reason we are calling these places concentration camps is that they are being used to detain civillians in a constrained area under inhumane conditions. A concise series of tweets that explains this: [https://twitter.com/landrist/status/1141056586628194304](https://twitter.com/landrist/status/1141056586628194304) > [@Lester Andrist](#): > > Why are they called concentration camps? well, to state the obvious, it’s because large numbers of people are “concentrated” in camps. A better question is, why don’t we just call them prisons? We don’t say “prisons” because prisons are a part of the formal legal system. > > Follow me on this: The immigrants detained in concentration camps are intended to be OUTSIDE the formal legal system. Once removed from the #CriminalJusticeSystem the state is largely free to do whatever it wants. As Hannah Arendt might say, “everything is possible.” > > And this is what makes #ConcentrationCamps so terrifying. Detainees have no Privilege of habeas corpus (i.e., to be charged or let go). They can be held indefinitely, unable to see their family & denied the psychological comfort of knowing when & if they will ever see them again > > It gets worse though. Because detainees of #ConcentrationCamps are outside the formal legal system, they are vulnerable to a whole host of other abuses. The history of #ConcentrationCamps is a history of people experiencing abuse, from torture to experimentation to sterilization It happens that many claims that “they can’t be concentrations camps because there isn’t \_\_\_” are also mischaracterizations of what’s actually going on in these camps, as there has been starvation including death, forced labor, overcrowding, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/173 "2019-06-21T05:01:18Z")
I predict nobody will be taking about this 2 weeks from now, so not much. Pretty much the same can be said of any flashpoint subject around Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/174 "2019-06-21T05:26:39Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > But I don’t want to hear “concentration camp” because to me, it means “the deliberate policy of extermination through labor…designed to ensure that the inmates would die of starvation, untreated disease and summary executions within set periods of time” Untreated disease… I think we are seeing that, though it probably can’t be characterized as deliberate. Still, detain thousands people in bad conditions and this will happen. Tell you what. Let these people out of detention and I’ll forget the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/175 "2019-06-21T06:02:22Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > They are calling these places concentration camps because they fit the definition of concentration camps, and because a number of historians concur that they fit the definition. That information is all provided in the OP, as well as by various posters throughout the thread. It has nothing to do with any “deaths” in the camps. Not only that, but historians are saying that this is the _beginning_ of the camp system. That this fits nicely with the start of camp systems, that such systems inherently deteriorate, and that things are going to get a lot worse. > [@Ashtura](#): > > I predict nobody will be taking about this 2 weeks from now, so not much. Pretty much the same can be said of any flashpoint subject around Trump. I must confess: part of my hope in starting this thread is that, in my own little way, I keep people talking about this. “Never Again” is not something I take lightly. This should not be a flashpoint. It’s a human rights catastrophe. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/176 "2019-06-21T06:30:12Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > My whole point is that you are the guys “playing with words”. This coming from Mr. “Concentration camps should not be called concentration camps” is the ridiculous part. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/177 "2019-06-21T08:22:32Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Like I said before. I already believe that conditions are bad. But I don’t want to hear “concentration camp” because to me, it means “the deliberate policy of extermination through labor…designed to ensure that the inmates would die of starvation, untreated disease and summary executions within set periods of time” A couple things: 1. You and you alone don’t get to redefine words. “Concentration camp” is a defined term and not even a new one. And given that we have reports of insufficient food, illnesses, lack of medical care, and so forth we might be closer to your definition than any of us would like. We _don’t know_ how many people have died in these places because the government is refusing to release numbers, but we do know some people have died. 2. I don’t care if you _want_ to hear something like this or not - I’m not going to stop talking about it because it’s an ugly reality that needs to be dragged out of the shadows and exposed to the light of day. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/178 "2019-06-21T10:20:39Z")
[Another historian in a mainstream news source weighs in](https://www.vox.com/first-person/2019/6/20/18693058/aoc-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-concentration-camps-immigration-border). > [@](#): > > Applying the term “concentration camp” to the indefinite detention without trial of thousands of civilians in inhumane conditions — under armed guard and without adequate provisions or medical care — is not just appropriate, it’s necessary. Invoking the word does not demean the memory of the Holocaust. Instead, the lessons of the Holocaust will be lost if we refuse to engage with them. But wait, there’s more: > [@](#): > > Apart from the historical argument, there is a moral and geopolitical imperative for calling the atrocities happening on our southern border by their proper names. The international human rights regime depends on global cooperation, a veneer of accountability, and American funding. Trump eschews soft power in favor of military solutions, and is leading his fellow authoritarians in a race to the bottom. The 1951 Refugee Convention, while imperfect, once offered protections to stateless, persecuted people. That’s no longer true. Asylum seekers at the Mexican border are being treated like criminals despite having broken no laws. **Locking up refugees in camps is the real betrayal of the legacy of the Holocaust**. > > As Hannah Arendt taught us in Eichmann in Jerusalem, **perpetrators depend on us being desensitized to the victims’ suffering. Using euphemisms to cover for atrocities is the essence of the banality of evil. This is why perpetrators work so hard to propagandize, criminalize, and dehumanize the Other**. Authoritarians require enemies to blame for their inadequacies, and to distract their base from their diminishing quality of life. > > The red flags at the border are obvious to those of us raised with “never again,” a phrase Ocasio-Cortez invoked: dehumanizing language, children in cages, families separated, the deaths of trans asylum seekers, rampant diseases, and subhuman living conditions. **“Never again” means we must work to deescalate before atrocities rise to the horrors of Auschwitz**. (Bolding mine.) Hmm. Fancy that. The phrasing does, in fact, matter. People aren’t too worried about “detainment camps”, even if conditions are horrendous. They may raise an eyebrow at “concentration camp”. Hopefully enough of an eyebrow to look into the conditions at the camps. I have enough faith in humanity to believe that it’s impossible for most people to see the actual conditions at the camps and come away thinking, “Yeah, this is fine”, and, as usual, the problem often boils down to “people are getting all their information from the right-wing media sphere, and the right-wing media sphere is fundamentally dishonest”. If “concentration camps” pierces that bubble, good. I’m hoping I’ll continue to be able to cite mainstream media articles here. It’s a sign that this continues to be an issue. Also, something I found funny. A few people here are complaining about “ridiculous” comparisons to nazis. This was the common through-line back in 2016 when a few prominent people were worried that Trump will probably build concentration camps. Here’s [Keith Olbermann](https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/11/17/olbermann_america_is_pretending_that_trump_isnt_going_to_build_concentration_camps.html). > [@](#): > > He continues: “That man who was elected by a minority says he will immediately incarcerate or deport 2-3 million undocumented Americans – which is roughly the same number of people who live in Houston, TX – which is roughly the same number of people who are already in all of the federal, state, and county jails and all the city jails, and al the ICE detention facilities, and all the Navy brigs, and all the Army stockades combined. Which leaves no inference possible, except that he somehow means to take 2-3 million people off our streets and keep them somewhere until they can be jailed or deported. **And we have to pretend that this somewhere… will not involved concentration camps**. But don’t worry, he’s unifying the nation!” HMMMMM. Note the comments section, which has aged _incredibly_ well. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/179 "2019-06-21T11:16:53Z")
Funny that the strict original definition is so vigorously supported in this one particular circumstance where the modern connotation would have maximum propaganda impact. Technically you are correct. Just like technically Switzerland is a 3rd world nation and the phrase begging the question does not mean raises the question yet is used as if it did. But we all know that this particular pedantry is political Humpty Dumpstyism. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738/180 "2019-06-21T11:21:01Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > I predict nobody will be taking about this 2 weeks from now, so not much. Pretty much the same can be said of any flashpoint subject around Trump. I predict people will be talking about it for a long time to come, simply because the migrants will keep coming and if something isn’t done to deal with this in a responsible manner, the situation will reach a breaking point and spill out into more public view. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-will-trumps-concentration-camps-have-on-his-reelection-campaign/835738.md?page=10)