# What effect would the repeal of the 2nd Amendment have on this country? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2017, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-would-the-repeal-of-the-2nd-amendment-have-on-this-country/797871 "2017-10-03T15:06:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-would-the-repeal-of-the-2nd-amendment-have-on-this-country/797871/81 "2017-10-03T21:04:33Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I’m saying neither. I doubt it would decrease the number of guns in the hands of criminals, it would merely increase the number of people who would be criminals, since by definition if we banned guns and ammo, as begbert2 suggested in the post I was originally responding to, people who chose not to turn in their guns or ammo would be criminals. Right? For the record, I never proposed banning guns and ammo, as in making them illegal to own. I proposed banning the _sale_ of guns and ammo. I actually haven’t even suggesting that anybody be asked to hand their guns in! And honestly, as has been pointed out, criminals have a harder time holding onto guns than non-criminals do - cops can seize them, parolees aren’t allowed to even own them, and nowadays it can be dangerous to hold onto a gun you’ve used in case it can be connected to a crime. Criminals almost certainly go through more guns than the average person does - if avenues for getting a hold of guns are constricted they’d be hit the hardest. If guns are no longer sold, the only people who have guns will be people who are _not_ criminals - because they’re the only ones who can easily keep them. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-would-the-repeal-of-the-2nd-amendment-have-on-this-country/797871/82 "2017-10-03T21:04:44Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Since the 2nd Amendment is a declaration that the government has not taken authority in a certain area, I’m not sure that it can be _repealed_. > > If you have just bought an apple, for example, and I reach over and pluck it out of your hand and take a bite, have I just repealed your ownership of the apple? > > The usage doesn’t make sense. > > For the people of the country to delegate authority to control weapons to the government, sans limites, would be something more like “dismissing the 2nd Amendment” rather than “repealing”. No! The federal government has enumerated powers. The Second Amendment is not “a declaration that the government has not taken authority in a certain area.” The federal government has NO authority in any area unless there is a grant of authority in the Constitution. The state governments have plenary legislative authority. Not the federal government. The Second is a fence that limits the government’s exercise of its other powers, such as regulation of interstate commerce, in ways that contravene the right to keep and bear arms. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-would-the-repeal-of-the-2nd-amendment-have-on-this-country/797871/83 "2017-10-03T21:09:35Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > For the record, I never proposed banning guns and ammo, as in making them illegal to own. I proposed banning the _sale_ of guns and ammo. I actually haven’t even suggesting that anybody be asked to hand their guns in! > > And honestly, as has been pointed out, criminals have a harder time holding onto guns than non-criminals do - cops can seize them, parolees aren’t allowed to even own them, and nowadays it can be dangerous to hold onto a gun you’ve used in case it can be connected to a crime. Criminals almost certainly go through more guns than the average person does - if avenues for getting a hold of guns are constricted they’d be hit the hardest. > > If guns are no longer sold, the only people who have guns will be people who are _not_ criminals - because they’re the only ones who can easily keep them. Fair enough. Your original point kind of got drowned out in the subsequent discussion by my tongue in cheek reply which sparked this whole hijack. I don’t think that what you are advancing here is what the OP really wanted to discuss but I’d be happy to if it’s ok with him. Otherwise, I’ll drop it at this point, acknowledging that I was overstating what you were getting at. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-would-the-repeal-of-the-2nd-amendment-have-on-this-country/797871/84 "2017-10-03T22:10:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No! > > The federal government has enumerated powers. The Second Amendment is not “a declaration that the government has not taken authority in a certain area.” The federal government has NO authority in any area unless there is a grant of authority in the Constitution. I’d say that you’re just repeating me, but I’m sure that there’s a technical discrepancy that’s beyond my knowledge to detect. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-would-the-repeal-of-the-2nd-amendment-have-on-this-country/797871/85 "2017-10-04T00:44:08Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > The Bill of Rights, while classified as Amendments, weren’t really amendments. The later amendments actually established new laws. The ten simply clarified that the government understood its limits. > > Going back to the apple example, if I tell you that you have ownership of everything you buy, when I later steal your apple, it’s still theft not repeal because there was never any need for me to have granted you the right of ownership to begin with. > > The writers of the Constitution didn’t feel that a Bill of Rights was necessary since the things it guaranteed were, similarly, implicitly obvious (by the standards of the time) as to not merit writing down. Of course they’re amendments. An amendment is a change or addition to an existing document. It has nothing to do with adding new laws. The Constitution is not a series of laws anyway; it’s a framework for government. Yes, the Federalists thought the Constitution was sufficient to protect individual rights. They were also concerned that listing individual rights would limit individuals to only the rights listed. The Republicans, aka The Anti-Federalists, agreed to ratify only on the condition the Constitution would be **amended** to include delineated individual rights. So ten amendments were ratified in 1791, including the 9th Amendment, which states that individuals have more rights than are listed. Your apple analogy doesn’t work because the topic is not personal property and theft but the repeal of amendments. ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-would-the-repeal-of-the-2nd-amendment-have-on-this-country/797871/86 "2017-10-04T03:10:27Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Of course, I’d accept it. It’s the reason we have the mechanism in our system and there is precedence in repealing an Amendment. I’d actually feel better about an above-board repeal than the sneaking underhanded tactics attempted in the past, to be honest. Would you? And what if by the same means the 1st or 4th amendments are repealed Do you accept that also? How about the 13th and 15th and 19th amendments? Would you accept that if they were repealed by the same means? How about the 3rd and the 8th? Is there some place where you would draw the line that it affects you too much or would you simply keep accepting as long as it looked to be done right? ---
**Author:** ![CoastalMaineiac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@CoastalMaineiac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoastalMaineiac)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-would-the-repeal-of-the-2nd-amendment-have-on-this-country/797871/87 "2017-10-04T05:47:49Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Not sure. How does it work in Japan and England? Why aren’t there roaming gangs of criminals with guns terrorizing the unarmed populace? Japan and England are not anywhere close to the size of the United States. Japan is 145,936 square miles. The U.K. is 93,628 square miles. The United States, however, is 3,796,742 square miles, or almost 16 times the size of the other two combined. The United States’ population is also much more spread out. Population density here is 90.6 people per square mile. It’s 701.1 people per square mile in the U.K., and 870.2 in Japan. Japan and the U.K. also have the geographic advantages of being islands, which I would imagine presents tougher logistical challenges for would-be smugglers. In contrast, the United States has over 7,400 miles of land borders with Canada and Mexico. Those differences alone would make it much more difficult to achieve the same level of success with gun control measures that they have had in countries like the U.K. and Japan. ---
**Author:** ![ThisIsTheEnd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thisistheend/32/4713_2.png) [@ThisIsTheEnd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisIsTheEnd)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-would-the-repeal-of-the-2nd-amendment-have-on-this-country/797871/88 "2017-10-04T12:08:21Z")
If the 2nd amendment was repealed, you’re already in a place where you’re taking guns by eminent domain and having laws where ownership is limited to a handgun per adult. In that case, keep all the ammo you want, who gives a shit about ammo. Maybe lock up all the taken guns in armories and set up ceremonial militias as a sop to the 1776-er nuts. Reputable media should seek to obtain and publish crime scene gore photos of the victims of this type of shit instead of sitting on it when they have it, that is how you will get some movement in this direction. ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-would-the-repeal-of-the-2nd-amendment-have-on-this-country/797871/89 "2017-10-04T17:20:42Z")
> [@ThisIsTheEnd](#): > > If the 2nd amendment was repealed, you’re already in a place where you’re taking guns by eminent domain and having laws where ownership is limited to a handgun per adult. In that case, keep all the ammo you want, who gives a shit about ammo. Perhaps only party members may own them. And then we can eliminate the1st, 4th 3rd, 8th, 13th, 15th and 19th amendments party members of course would still enjoy the some fashion of them, within the party guidelines of course. Those outside the party must be separated from any rights, because those who oppose the party oppose society and progress and are there fore enemies of the people and they must be eliminated for the good of the whole. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-would-the-repeal-of-the-2nd-amendment-have-on-this-country/797871/90 "2017-10-04T18:05:54Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > People love their guns so much that they would be willing to kill and die for them? > > No doubt a handful of mentally unstable individuals would act out, but do you think the roughly 1/3 of the population who owns guns would go to war with the rest of the country? Substitute the word ‘rights’ for ‘guns’ and you are starting to get on the right path. Slee, who owns 0 guns. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-would-the-repeal-of-the-2nd-amendment-have-on-this-country/797871/91 "2017-10-04T18:45:27Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Protecting them from who?.. Ze Germans??.. From the thieves who were walking through neighborhoods and forcing their way into houses with a double barrelled shotgun. I spent some time wondering if the guy who tried to mug my Wife and got caught was smart enough to realize that if the witness against him died he might not be convicted, and dumb enough to realize that he would be the first guy the police would come looking for. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-would-the-repeal-of-the-2nd-amendment-have-on-this-country/797871/92 "2017-10-04T18:46:55Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > My question to you is, what are Japan and England doing differently that prevents a huge black market of guns? One whereby all manner of criminals are illegally purchasing weapons to terrorize the unarmed populace with. I would think that where the police doesn’t carry firearms, the crooks don’t feel it necessary to use guns in crime. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-would-the-repeal-of-the-2nd-amendment-have-on-this-country/797871/93 "2017-10-04T19:07:08Z")
> [@Weisshund](#): > > Would you? > > And what if by the same means the 1st or 4th amendments are repealed > Do you accept that also? > > How about the 13th and 15th and 19th amendments? > Would you accept that if they were repealed by the same means? > > How about the 3rd and the 8th? > > Is there some place where you would draw the line that it affects you too much > or would you simply keep accepting as long as it looked to be done right? Yeah, I would. Our system is designed to have this feature. Be kind of silly for me to complain about it, or to pick some Amendments that can be changed, modified or removed but not these others. As long as the process was used correctly, I’d accept a change. I might move away if I feel that things have changed too much…which would be the case if, say, the 1st was removed. But it’s a feature, not a bug, and our system is meant to change with the times and changing attitudes. It’s also not an easy thing to do, which is also the way it’s meant to be. Probably why, despite all of the anti-gun types they haven’t actually ever tried to repeal the 2nd. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-would-the-repeal-of-the-2nd-amendment-have-on-this-country/797871/94 "2017-10-04T19:09:30Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I would think that where the police doesn’t carry firearms, the crooks don’t feel it necessary to use guns in crime. I would think the inverse is true as well. With the crooks not carrying guns, the cops don’t need to either. And if neither is carrying, then confrontations can be much less tense. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-would-the-repeal-of-the-2nd-amendment-have-on-this-country/797871/95 "2017-10-04T19:32:13Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I would think the inverse is true as well. With the crooks not carrying guns, the cops don’t need to either. And if neither is carrying, then confrontations can be much less tense. In the UK acid attacks are becoming more common. I would rather be shot or stabbed. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-would-the-repeal-of-the-2nd-amendment-have-on-this-country/797871/96 "2017-10-04T19:36:56Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I would think the inverse is true as well. With the crooks not carrying guns, the cops don’t need to either. Surely. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-would-the-repeal-of-the-2nd-amendment-have-on-this-country/797871/97 "2017-10-04T20:08:34Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > In the UK acid attacks are becoming more common. I would rather be shot or stabbed. As they don’t have an amendment that protect the use and possession and open carry of acid, there are laws being put into place to control people’s access to acid, as well as stopping people and asking tem why they have containers of acid on their person in public. It’s almost as though they’ve identified a problem, and taken steps to try to reduce it. Show me a similar effort in the US on guns, and your analogy has relevance. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-would-the-repeal-of-the-2nd-amendment-have-on-this-country/797871/98 "2017-10-04T20:11:05Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > As they don’t have an amendment that protect the use and possession and open carry of acid, there are laws being put into place to control people’s access to acid, as well as stopping people and asking tem why they have containers of acid on their person in public. > > It’s almost as though they’ve identified a problem, and taken steps to try to reduce it. Show me a similar effort in the US on guns, and your analogy has relevance. But if they ban acid, then only the criminals will have access to acid! ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-would-the-repeal-of-the-2nd-amendment-have-on-this-country/797871/99 "2017-10-04T20:14:46Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > As they don’t have an amendment that protect the use and possession and open carry of acid, there are laws being put into place to control people’s access to acid, as well as stopping people and asking tem why they have containers of acid on their person in public. > > It’s almost as though they’ve identified a problem, and taken steps to try to reduce it. Show me a similar effort in the US on guns, and your analogy has relevance. Random people aren’t walking up to complete strangers and shooting them. Apples and oranges. When you subtract suicide, male 18-35 violence and domestic abuse; there really isn’t a problem. It would be more effective to ban murderous video games and media than guns. But the antigun crowd wouldn’t want to make that sacrifice for the sake of a safer society. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-would-the-repeal-of-the-2nd-amendment-have-on-this-country/797871/100 "2017-10-04T20:20:15Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > But if they ban acid, then only the criminals will have access to acid! They will come for our car batteries next! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-would-the-repeal-of-the-2nd-amendment-have-on-this-country/797871.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-effect-would-the-repeal-of-the-2nd-amendment-have-on-this-country/797871.md?page=6)