# What entices people to join Scientology? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 6, 2002, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883 "2002-12-06T07:22:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/41 "2002-12-07T04:14:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RexDart \* > \*\*The story is so ludicrous, nobody would buy into it. Don’t even try to equate it with real religions as to believability. Even the most far-fetched religions, like Hinduism with all those weird-looking gods and “pointy deities” (thanks Homer Simpson), or even the Greco-Roman or Norse pantheons of gods, seem normal in comparison. \*\* “pointy deities”, huh? How about pointy headed characters with pitch forks? And creatures with wings? Burning bushes? Seas parting and floods happening wiping out everything except two of each species who happened to survive only because some guy thousands of years ago built a really big boat? That makes much more sense. Brain washing? Look at Islam. They spend hours a day praying. At Ramadan they spend even more time and go without food and drink during the day then stay up all night gorging. Sounds like brain-washing to me. How about Catholics who confess all their sins to the local child molestor? The church has never used that stuff to get what its wants, of course not. I even hear that the church expects its followers to pay a percentage of their income as dues to be members. Not like Scientology at all. :rolleyes: And them Mormons with their special bullet-proof underwear who believe that Jesus came to North America all based upon what some guy claims he read on golden tablets (which only he could decipher) he found in the woods. Scientology doesn’t seem to have a monopoly on silly stories. From what I can see Hubbard just took the stuff invented by others and, being the smart guy he was, combined it into a fine money making organization that makes all the other religions :smack: their heads wondering why they didn’t think of it earlier. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/42 "2002-12-07T04:27:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DeadlyAccurate \* > \*\*_They_ don’t come up with anything. \*\* I meant the founders, but you answered that. ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/43 "2002-12-07T04:36:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Uzi \* > [BFrom what I can see Hubbard just took the stuff invented by others and, being the smart guy he was, combined it into a fine money making organization that makes all the other religions :smack: their heads wondering why they didn’t think of it earlier. \*\* I stand by what I said. Real religions, for the most part, are headed by people who genuinely believe in the values and methods of their religion. Real religions are still more believable, if for no other reason than that their stories were written better. There is a distinct difference between genuine religions and Hubbard’s UFO cult. Leaders of real religions aren’t trying to squeeze slave labor out of their followers, the Co$ is. Real religions don’t throw an endless barrage of frivolous lawsuits at anybody who they, in their paranoia, think is trying to “suppress” them. The Co$ does just that to people who expose the truth about them. Real religions don’t deny appropriate medical treatment to their followers and allow them to go mad or die. The Co$ denies its members the psychiatric treatment and counselling that would save their sanity because of a paranoid mistrust of psychiatrists. A leader of a real religion wouldn’t toss people off the side of his yacht in the middle of the ocean for being insolent, but Hubbard did just that many, many times. As an athiest, I have my own good share of mistrust for religions. I would never take that opinion so far as to color all religions with the taint of such behaviours as are exhibited by the Co$. There is quite simply no comparison. Only a person with the most irrational and unthinking hatred for religion would see genuine religions cut from the same cloth as $cientology. There are many people on this message board who are intelligent and rational, yet religious. No $cientologist could be rational and intelligent and yet defend his belief in $cientology. That alone is difference enough, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/44 "2002-12-07T05:05:21Z")
And one **Rex** missed. No other real religion makes people pay upwards of $20,000 to read their sacred texts. Hell, Christians leave their’s in _hotel rooms_ for free. If you’re getting into mainstream Christianity, Islam, Judiasm, Buddhism, etc, you can pick up their holy book and see what they’re about. Good luck doing the same with the $cientologists. Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/45 "2002-12-07T05:18:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MyFootsZZZ \* > \*\*How did they come up with these stories? > > Did someone just yank them out of their ass? > > What’s their “Bible”? \*\* Dianetics. ---
**Author:** ![reprise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@reprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reprise)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/46 "2002-12-07T05:26:42Z")
Just following on from what **Fenris** said, the CoS copyrights everything associated with its tech and it ruthlessly pursues legal action against anyone who infringes on its copyrights. Unlike most other religions (whose followers are more than willing to discuss their beliefs with outsiders), there is a prohibition against delivering “verbal tech” in the CoS - so even if you asked a friend what they are learning as they advance through the levels, they wouldn’t tell you (this is especially true of the OT levels - even married couples don’t discuss the details of the courses they have done unless they have both completed the same level). ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/47 "2002-12-07T06:28:19Z")
One of the most innovative ways of controlling the “intellectual property” of the OT levels is the “Wall of Fire” – an intense auditing retreat in which during which the mark is told that they’ve had “auto-destruct” engrams removed, and can now safely be told about some new Arcana, and that Xenu has programmed all the living souls in the universe with engrams that will trigger terminal disease if people even accidentally hear about the stuff. So don’t mention it to anyone until they’ve paid for the course, or they’ll get cancer. Seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/48 "2002-12-07T10:57:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RexDart \* > \*\*I stand by what I said. Real religions, for the most part, are headed by people who genuinely believe in the values and methods of their religion. Real religions are still more believable, if for no other reason than that their stories were written better. \*\* Maybe the people in Scientology really believe what its about? I’m pretty sure Hubbard didn’t as it would be like Tolkien believing in the Valar. Did Christ believe that he was the son of God? Just because he may have doesn’t make him saying he was any more true, or believable. > [@](#): > > \*\* > There is a distinct difference between genuine religions and Hubbard’s UFO cult. Leaders of real religions aren’t trying to squeeze slave labor out of their followers, the Co$ is. Real religions don’t throw an endless barrage of frivolous lawsuits at anybody who they, in their paranoia, think is trying to “suppress” them. \*\* Well others are trying to suppress them, aren’t they? Germany has banned them. If that isn’t suppression what is? Would you like them to be like Mohammed and go out and slaughter the people suppressing him? Does that make the Islamic religion more valid? Or does the amount of followers one have make some sort of difference? Slave labour? Notice all those churches? Where do you think they came from and who paid for them? > [@](#): > > \*\* > The Co$ does just that to people who expose the truth about them. \*\* And Islamic leaders don’t put a price on people’s heads for speaking out against their prophet, either? > [@](#): > > \*\*Real religions don’t deny appropriate medical treatment to their followers and allow them to go mad or die. \*\* Jehovah Witnesses > [@](#): > > \*\*A leader of a real religion wouldn’t toss people off the side of his yacht in the middle of the ocean for being insolent, but Hubbard did just that many, many times. \*\* Well, Hubbard didn’t start a real religion, he started a money making operation. There is no proof that any of these other religious founders were anything but the same as him and quite a bit of common sense saying that they were. Take a close look at the founder of the Mormons as an example > [@](#): > > \*\*As an athiest, I have my own good share of mistrust for religions. I would never take that opinion so far as to color all religions with the taint of such behaviours as are exhibited by the Co$. There is quite simply no comparison. Only a person with the most irrational and unthinking hatred for religion would see genuine religions cut from the same cloth as $cientology. \*\* Meaning me? Well I could care less what you believe in as long as it was voluntary. If these people in Scientology are held against their wills then that is wrong, but because someone made a confession about sleeping with his sister doesn’t make him a slave and thus gives him the option to tell the church leaders to go fuck themselves. And as these people don’t live in a third world country where they could lose their lives for speaking out (as in most Islamic countries), they have every option to do so. That means to me that some of them probably believe the shit they are being served as much as some Catholic sitting in church every Sunday. > [@](#): > > \*\*There are many people on this message board who are intelligent and rational, yet religious. No $cientologist could be rational and intelligent and yet defend his belief in $cientology. That alone is difference enough, IMO. \*\* You say Angels casting each other out of heaven is defensible, but not evil souls buried in the earth by an ancient civilization years ago? Why? Because one is science fiction and the other fantasy? What is the difference? ---
**Author:** ![tramp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@tramp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tramp)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/49 "2002-12-07T15:27:47Z")
I’m sorry, but Xenu would be a great name for a bathroom cleaner! Can’t get that shit off you toilet bowl? TRY XENU! ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/50 "2002-12-07T16:30:02Z")
I just hate Scientology because my creationist parents always bring it up as an example of people worshiping science. :rolleyes: I try to tell them it is not quite frequently, but the never believe me. To them CoS is Church of Science. LOL ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/51 "2002-12-07T16:35:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Uzi \* > [B. Scientology doesn’t seem to have a monopoly on silly stories. > . \*\* Agree. The stories told by the scientologists aren’t any less believable that the Norse, Hinduist, or Christian mythologies. It’s only that people are more accustomed to hear about the equally ludicrous tales of more widespread or well known (if extinct) religions. Ranking the religious tales, from the most credible to the less as follow : 1)Christiannity 2)Hinduism 3)Norse 4)Scientology as \*\* Rexdart \*\* did only means “the more familiar I am with the tale , the more credible it is”. Not that I’m supporting the church of scientology, but his " _our_ tales are believable, and the tales of people with pointy-headed gods are not utterly ludicrous (just very ludicrous), but this new tale is just fucking stupid" irritated me a lot. Yes, sure…devils inciting you to commit sins is much more believable than thetans inciting you to commit bad acts…That’s obvious. How could someone think otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/52 "2002-12-07T16:50:10Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by RexDart \* \*\*There is a distinct difference between genuine religions and Hubbard’s UFO cult. Leaders of real religions aren’t trying to squeeze slave labor out of their followers, the Co$ is. \*\* That’s true, but it’s not the argument you were using and that we attacked. > [@](#): > > As an athiest, I have my own good share of mistrust for religions. > \*\* Nevertheless you clearly made a distinction between the stories told by various religions. There’s only a little valid part in your point : equally ludicrous tales and beliefs are much more easy to buy when they’re widespread. If you’ve grown up surrounded by the christian beliefs and tales, you’re likely to find them somewhat more believable than new beliefs, despite it not being objectively true. It’s more difficult to convince someone to believe in something ludicrous he’s not accustomed to than in something ludicrous he’s accustomed to. A sincere christian will appear to most people as a regular guy. A sincere member of some cults I heard about will appear to most people as just a nutjob. And will be less likely to convince. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/53 "2002-12-07T18:01:47Z")
Scientology - or rather people’s propensity in this day and age to fall for it - makes perfect sense to me. It is arguably the most self-centred “religion” - literally self-worship. There is no external deity. The entire religion is based on self-analysis and self-concern. It’s the perfect, perfect fit for today’s self-obsessed, paranoid, vain and insecure people - and particularly celebrities. Whoever thought it up was fucking evil and a fucking genius. And probably quite deservedly a billionnaire. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/54 "2002-12-07T18:04:35Z")
Addendum: Emirates Internet blocks access to [http://www.xenu.net](http://www.xenu.net) - **Reprise’s** link. So I’ll go and visit it when I’m next in the uncensored Media Free Zone. Screw you, **Etisalat.** ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/55 "2002-12-07T18:20:14Z")
What I’ve never understood is that it’s in writing that L. Ron was in it for the money. Why have no scientologists ever twigged to this? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/56 "2002-12-07T20:12:09Z")
Because the only place it’s in writing is in the scribblings of downstat PTS OP’s. …like us. And you know what a bunch of liars we are. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/57 "2002-12-08T13:48:30Z")
L Ron, John Whiteside Parsons, and … Aleister Crowley! ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/58 "2002-12-08T13:49:53Z")
I actually asked the tour guide about L Ron’s association with Aleister. She acted like she had no idea what I was talking about. Maybe she didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/59 "2002-12-08T18:15:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Larry Mudd \* > \*\*Because the only place it’s in writing is in the scribblings of downstat PTS OP’s. …like us. And you know what a bunch of liars we are. \*\* But that’s the thing… it’s not. I’ve been hearing about it for years before I’d even known the Straight Dope existed. I’ve never bothered to follow it up because I don’t care one way or the other. But when the leader of your religion is quoted a while before starting your religion as saying “The best way to make money is to start your own religion” it would make me think, at least. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/60 "2002-12-08T21:28:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Silentgoldfish \* > \*\*But when the leader of your religion is quoted a while before starting your religion as saying “The best way to make money is to start your own religion” it would make me think, at least. \*\* I’ve _never_ seen a convincing cite for that quote. I’ve heard and read it alleged that Hubbard said it to [ul] [li]Robert Heinlein (which I don’t buy: Heinlein woulda blown the whistle, IMO)[/li][li]John W. Campbell (don’t buy: Campbell was a _follower_ of Dianetics and the first printed bit of Dianetics was in Astounding. Campbell fell for stuff like this all the time. He was gullible but not a crook.)[/li][li]L. Sprague DeCamp (this would be the same DeCamp who wrote a number of excellent skeptical books?)[/li][li]Harlan Ellison (who woulda been a fan or a _just_ published writer at the time: and I can’t picture LRon spilling the beans to some unknown kid)[/ul].[/li] etc. It’s a great quote, and I have no doubt that LRon felt that way, but like I said, I’ve never been convinced that he actually _said_ it. Fenris [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883.md?page=4)