# What entices people to join Scientology? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 6, 2002, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883 "2002-12-06T07:22:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/61 "2002-12-08T21:36:03Z")
Within the context of the Scientology belief system, _anyone_ who says anything remotely negative about Scientology is an SP – a suppressive person. Anyone who is even remotely _connected_ with an SP is PTS-- a potential trouble source. There a strict rules for dealing with people like this. Say, for example you happened to mention to an auditor that your mother mentioned some quote of LRH’s about “working the religion angle.” This puts things on radical new terms. You are deemed PTS, and you have an SP mother. There are two routes: A “Handling” or a “Disconnect”. “Handling” is an attempt to bring her into affinity with the tenets of Scientology. A “Disconnect” is, well, pretty obvious, I guess. It’s very important for the rube to acknowledge that they _are_ PTS. It’s their responsibility and duty to get straightened out, even if it means cutting everyone that they used to know dead. Another device that the organization uses to facilitate this is the “PTS Rundown” Scientology teaches that many physical ailments are due to the malign influence of SP’s. If you’ve got a cold, it’s not because you’ve been exposed to nasty germs, (which are a silly outdated notion,) but rather because you’ve been exposed to nasty ideas. When the entire planet is “cleared”, there will be no more influenza, and everyone will have great hair and teeth like John Travolta. Okay, I made that last bit up. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/62 "2002-12-08T21:46:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Robert Heinlein (which I don’t buy: Heinlein woulda blown the whistle, IMO) I don’t know… they kept up their acquaintance well enough, and I think RAH was enough of a cynic that he thought gullible people deserved whatever they got. Heinlein’s none-too-subtle dig at Hubbard at the end of _Number of the Beast_ was actually pretty gentle & humourous. The [correspondance posted at lronhubbard.org seems to indicate they were on pretty good terms](http://literary.lronhubbard.org/page83.htm) – surely Ginny would have complained if it was fake? ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/63 "2002-12-08T22:03:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Larry Mudd \* > \*\*I don’t know… they kept up their acquaintance well enough, and I think RAH was enough of a cynic that he thought gullible people deserved whatever they got. Heinlein’s none-too-subtle dig at Hubbard at the end of _Number of the Beast_ was actually pretty gentle & humourous. > > The [correspondance posted at lronhubbard.org seems to indicate they were on pretty good terms](http://literary.lronhubbard.org/page83.htm) – surely Ginny would have complained if it was fake? \*\* A) I’d never seen that correspondence: thanks for the link! B) Th’ problem is that while I can see an older, cynical Heinlein thinking that gullible people should get what they deserve, I don’t see the social activist Heinlein of the '50s (he wrote a book about grassroots politics and dirty tricks) or the '60s (he took out ads in papers to inform people of what he saw as impending disasters) as willing or able to do stay quiet. And every date I’ve seen on that quote has put it before about 1965. Like I said, I can’t prove it, but hell, if nothing else, I can’t imagine Heinlein not mentioning it in **Grumbles from the Grave** , if only to confirm the quote. Fenris ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/64 "2002-12-08T23:31:47Z")
there’ a woman in ireland at the moment sueing the Co$ for emotional harm and so on. i wish her luck. and after reading the operation clambake site, i wish her a big settlement, and for the Co$ to be declared a cult and a fraud in the courts. but i’m an optimist. and an SP! ---
**Author:** ![KillerFig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/51bf81/32.png) [@KillerFig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KillerFig)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/65 "2002-12-09T00:25:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > \*\*I’ve _never_ seen a convincing cite for that quote. > > \*\* Nor have I; and like you, I’ve heard that he said it to any number of different science fiction writers. The oddest variant I heard–and the one that first made me think the whole story was bunk–was from a friend who insisted that Hubbard, Heinlein, and Frank Herbert had a bet to see who could make the most money by starting his own religion. Hubbard got the job done so quickly, the others never had a chance to start. It took me six months to convince my friend that this was not true. ---
**Author:** ![KillerFig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/51bf81/32.png) [@KillerFig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KillerFig)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/66 "2002-12-09T00:29:49Z")
[This page](http://www.tafkac.org/religion/hubbard_heinlein_bet.html) goes into a bit of detail about the rumor that Hubbard admitted he was starting a religion to make money; apparently, Theodore Sturgeon has claimed that Hubbard said it to him, but that it was nothing more than an off-hand joke. ---
**Author:** ![ElwoodCuse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/edb3f5/32.png) [@ElwoodCuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElwoodCuse)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/67 "2002-12-09T03:04:02Z")
I wish Douglas Adams would have started a religion instead. I bet that would have been a blast. (But for the record, Adams was an atheist. I think the only song played at his memorial service was “Paperback Writer”.) ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/68 "2002-12-09T03:05:03Z")
Actually, Sturgeon at least makes some sense in terms of the time frame and Sturgeon doesn’t have the same kind of axe to grind that say, DeCamp would have had. I’d swear that Ellison said that Hubbard said it to him\*, but for reasons listed above, I don’t buy it. Fenris \*I can’t swear that I remember Ellison saying this: I’m going on a 20-some year old memory, so take my recollection with a grain or ten of salt ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/69 "2002-12-09T03:23:00Z")
At one time, my wife’s uncle Bob Guinn was the publisher of Galaxy Science Fiction Magazine. At a certain point in time – in the 1950’s I think, or the early 1960’s – Guinn made a decision not to accept certain stuff from Hubbard. I’m a little foggy now, but IIRC what he would no longer accept was advertisements. Unfortunately, Bob Guinn passed away some years ago, and I never got the exact story as to what his reasons were or any other details. ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/70 "2002-12-09T04:02:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by clairobscur \* > \*\*Agree. The stories told by the scientologists aren’t any less believable that the Norse, Hinduist, or Christian mythologies. It’s only that people are more accustomed to hear about the equally ludicrous tales of more widespread or well known (if extinct) religions. > > Ranking the religious tales, from the most credible to the less as follow : > > 1)Christiannity > 2)Hinduism > 3)Norse > 4)Scientology > > as \*\* Rexdart \*\* did only means “the more familiar I am with the tale , the more credible it is”. > Not that I’m supporting the church of scientology, but his " _our_ tales are believable, and the tales of people with pointy-headed gods are not utterly ludicrous (just very ludicrous), but this new tale is just fucking stupid" irritated me a lot. \*\* First off, as I am an atheist, none of them are _my_ tales. Secondly, I stand by what I said. They are believable in that order. The reason is complexity. If you strip away alot of the trappings of Christian mythology, (present mostly because the religion was born of ancient Judaism, and not essential parts of the religion if they are considered part of it at all), then Christianity is relatively simple. Monotheism is simpler than polythiesm, thus more believable. $cientology is so frickin’ complex they issue huge dictionaries of terms to their members. In the daily practice of their studies, they actually have to refer to that dictionary often. As a worldview, it’s so jumbled and incoherent that they have to put everything together with a patchwork quilt of terminology and labels. Stuff about cherubim and how many classes of angels there are is pretty silly, but it’s not really essential to either Christianity or the Judaism from which it originated. The Xenu story _is_ essential to fitting together all the odd bits and parts of $cientology. In the essentials, one is simpler and thus more credible. Not all false ideas are equally credible. If I started saying that waves were transmitted through the vacuum of space by an invisible medium called the “ether”, I might get some high school kids to believe it. If I claimed that waves were transmitted through the vacuum of space on the backs of magical pixies who can fly at the speed of light, _nobody_ would believe that. Both are false, one is more believable than the other. ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/71 "2002-12-09T04:20:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Uzi \* > \*\* > Well, Hubbard didn’t start a real religion, he started a money making operation. There is no proof that any of these other religious founders were anything but the same as him and quite a bit of common sense saying that they were. Take a close look at the founder of the Mormons as an example > \*\* The people who founded and spread Christianity might have gotten free room and board from some villager once and awhile, if they managed not to get stoned, but I hardly think they were in it for the money. Mohammed was a battle-leader of some sort, by the time he realized he was “starting a religion” (if he ever did) he proabably already had everything he ever wanted out of life in terms of money and power. I agree that Mormonism’s founding sounds like a bit of a scam at first, but it wasn’t all wine and roses for the first Mormon leaders. They got kicked out of just about every place they ever tried to settle, losing plenty of wealth and property along the way before they made it to Utah. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Well I could care less what you believe in as long as it was voluntary. If these people in Scientology are held against their wills then that is wrong, but because someone made a confession about sleeping with his sister doesn’t make him a slave and thus gives him the option to tell the church leaders to go fuck themselves. And as these people don’t live in a third world country where they could lose their lives for speaking out (as in most Islamic countries), they have every option to do so. \*\* See **Larry Mudd** ’s post for how they prevent people from leaving. The psychological power of a cult over its members is not to be underestimated. For those who are less wealthy they move “up the bridge”, advancing through the levels of $cientology, by working off their fees. That means endless hours of labor at the Orgs, where they usually live, isolated from the community and surrounded only by other cientologists. Should they break the cult's hold on them, they may leave only to find themselves being battered with lawsuits over allegedly unpaid fees. And by the time you escape, you might have spent the last few years cutting yourself off from all your non-Co friends and family who might be in position to help you make the transition. There are other ways to hold someone against their will than physical restraint and physical force, though the Co$ is not above using those methods either. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@The\_Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tim)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/72 "2002-12-09T04:21:49Z")
But your perception of complexity is based on familiarity. Polytheism is less complex than monotheism, it doesn’t suffer the problem of evil nearly as much and generally has a better analogy of scale from humans to the gods. I’ll agree that Scientology is far more unwieldly and distant from reality than most other religions, probably because other religions are honest attempts to understand the world where as Scientology is not. The difference isn’t so simple as just calling one more complex than another. That said if Scientology is was just about Xenu, getting clear and thetans it wouldn’t be bad at all. They could go do there thing and no one would care except to be occasionally mean about the silliness of the beliefs. The problem isn’t the beliefs but the practices. The actions of the CoS are unforgivable of any entity and at times approach the insane levels of villiany one finds Catholicism accused of in Chick tracts. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/73 "2002-12-09T04:34:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RexDart \* > \*\*First off, as I am an atheist, none of them are _my_ tales… > > Both are false, one is more believable than the other. \*\* The main beliefs in Christianity is that Christ rose from the dead and is the son of god. That is believable by any sane person? I understand your point about some things being more believable than others, but fantasy is fantasy as far as I’m concerned. Now if you want to argue about the affects of ones belief in their particular fantasy, that is another matter entirely. But you can’t convince me that Christians are any more rational than Scientologists when it comes to their beliefs, they just have had 2000 years to mellow out (somewhat). ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/74 "2002-12-09T04:50:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RexDart \* > \*\*The people who founded and spread Christianity might have gotten free room and board from some villager once and awhile, if they managed not to get stoned, but I hardly think they were in it for the money. \*\* Maybe they were in it because they didn’t like working at all? Wandering around the countryside chatting up the chicks and getting free meals certainly would look quite a bit better than slaving away at a regular job especially back then. > [@](#): > > \*\*Mohammed was a battle-leader of some sort, by the time he realized he was “starting a religion” (if he ever did) he proabably already had everything he ever wanted out of life in terms of money and power. \*\* Given all the pronouncements he made and the Koran which came directly from his mouth, I would think he was trying to start a religion. And he slaughtered those who got in his way. I prefer lawsuits over being slaughtered any day. > [@](#): > > **I agree that Mormonism’s founding sounds like a bit of a scam at first, but it wasn’t all wine and roses for the first Mormon leaders. They got kicked out of just about every place they ever tried to settle, losing plenty of wealth and property along the way before they made it to Utah.** Ya pays yer money, ya take yer chances.😃 ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/75 "2002-12-09T05:29:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RexDart \* > \*\*First off, as I am an atheist, none of them are _my_ tales. > > Secondly, I stand by what I said. They are believable in that order. The reason is complexity. . \*\* The Tim and Uzi essentially nailed it. -Christianism isn’t less complex than polytheistic beliefs. It’s not just because there are more gods that a religion is more complex. There are a lot of basic concepts which really aren’t easy to grasp in this religion (except for people who are familiar with its tenets). If some of the christian dogmas had to be declared “mysteries” (impossible to understand rationnally) by theologians, it’s for a reason. A god pissed at you because you didn’t make the proper sacrifices is quite easy to understand, on the other hand. -Even if christianism were less complex, I don’t see in what way it would make it more believable. Actually, I perceive no relationship between these two characteristics. -The basic tenets of christianism are totally unbelievable as already pointed out. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/76 "2002-12-09T06:30:40Z")
> [@](#): > > It gets weirder: there’s something about how clams have vast psychic powers or some such. CLAMS GOT LEGS!!! ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/77 "2002-12-09T11:41:10Z")
“Now we’re gonna have to kill him” 😃 Fenris ---
**Author:** ![DeadlyAccurate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@DeadlyAccurate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadlyAccurate)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/78 "2002-12-09T13:59:49Z")
> [@](#): > > For a while, Ron shared a room with Nieson Himmel, a young reporter who had also met Parsons through a shared interest in science fiction. > > Perhaps because of the inbred scepticism of newspapermen, Himmel was less impressed than most by his new room-mate: `I can’t stand phoneys and to me he was so obviously a phoney, a real con > > * * * > > 1. Rogers, _ibid._ > > man. But he was certainly not a dummy. He was very sharp and quick, a fascinating story-teller, and he could charm the shit out of > anybody. He talked interminably about his war experiences and seemed to have been everywhere. Once he said he was on Admiral Halsey’s staff. I called a friend who worked with Halsey and my friend said “Shit, I’ve never heard of him.” > > `I was not one of his favourite people because I liked to try and > trip him up. One time he told a story about how he was walking down a corridor in the British Museum when he was suddenly grabbed by three scientists who dragged him into an office and began measuring his skull because it was such a perfect shape. I said, “Gee, Ron, that’s a great story – didn’t I read it in George Bernard Shaw?” Another time he said he was in the Aleutians in command of a destroyer and a polar bear jumped from an ice floe onto his ship and chased everyone around. I recognized it as an old, old folklore story that goes way back. > > `He was always broke and trying to borrow money. That was another reason he didn’t like me – I would never lend him a cent. Whenever he was talking about being hard up he often used to say that he thought the easiest way to make money would be to start a religion.’[9] > > 1. Interview with Himmel. pp116-117. > [@](#): > > Thereafter, Campbell was the first committed disciple of Dianetics, utterly convinced that L. Ron Hubbard had made profound discoveries about the workings of the mind and that the fundamental nature of human life was about to be changed for the better. [Hubbard himself was perhaps as concerned to make money as he was to help humanity and he had some interesting ideas about how to do it. Around this time he was invited to address a science-fiction group in Newark hosted by the writer, Sam Moskowitz. ‘Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous,’ he told the meeting. ‘If a man really wanted to make a million dollars, the best way to do it would be to start his own religion.’[2]] > > 1. Los Angeles Times, 27 August 1978 p 148 From [_Bare-Faced Messiah_](http://www.clambake.org/archive/books/bfm/bfmconte.htm). Those were the only direct quotes I could find. I do believe he said it, though not necessarily at those times. Whether he truly meant it or was just joking at those time, I don’t know. Obviously he started to believe it eventually. ---
**Author:** ![Janx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Janx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Janx)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883/79 "2002-12-09T14:31:45Z")
\*\* KidCharlemagne \*\* wrote > [@](#): > > I have a friend whose father was a lawyer representing someone who was suing the CoS (exact reasons I can’t remember.) His family was assaulted with death threats, attempts at financial sabotage, and surveillance operations. They found bugs in his house and everything. Eventually he gave up on the case. \*\* DeadlyAccurate \*\* wrote > [@](#): > > …and I can honestly declare that the CoS is a dangerous, mind-altering cult that will stop at nothing to quiet dissenters. Some interesting articles: whatever the truth is, I wouldn’t mess with this group. [An Interesting Article](http://www.xs4all.nl/~oracle/mgarde/amlaw.txt) [And another one…](http://www.planetkc.com/sloth/sci/FBI.txt) [Now this says a mouth full](http://www.sptimes.com/News/32899/TampaBay/Hardball.html) > [@](#): > > … St. Petersburg Times has documented a consistent pattern of church officials relentlessly pursuing its critics in legal actions that some charge are designed as much to harass as to achieve legal victory. In one year alone, the Times has found, Scientology spent more than $30-million on legal and professional fees. [A confession (?)](http://www.whyaretheydead.net/misc/Factnet/FISHAFF3.TXT) > [@](#): > > Mr. Leibowitz related to me that he was having difficulty handling the fact that he had drowned a dog. Mr. Leibowitz informed me that the dog was a collie by the name of “Duke”, and that he belonged to a Judge Swearinger who > lived in the hills of Los Angeles. [And on, and on, and on](http://www.xenu.net/archive/CourtFiles/occf10.html?FACTNet) Yeesh, I get the creeps just posting this stuff. If there evere was na Illuminati… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-entices-people-to-join-scientology/140883.md?page=3)