# What every well-read Science-Fiction fan should read-maybe. (very long!) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 18, 2001, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-every-well-read-science-fiction-fan-should-read-maybe-very-long/69243 "2001-06-18T20:38:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![asheb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/cab0a1/32.png) [@asheb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asheb)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2001, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-every-well-read-science-fiction-fan-should-read-maybe-very-long/69243/101 "2001-06-22T20:09:35Z")
To Say Nothing of the Dog (henceforth known as “Dog”) is a great book. So is Bellwether, which no one has mentioned. Doomsday, however, grabbed me. I was able to put Dog aside and go to sleep, but I stayed up all night reading Doomsday. Perhaps it’s the infectious disease junkie in me. The comic/Hugo connection is important. On the other hand, Doomsday managed to combine the hypomanic comedy of errors of Dog with a sense of danger and doom and urgency. If the choice is Blood Music v. Forge, I’ll vote for Blood Music. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2001, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-every-well-read-science-fiction-fan-should-read-maybe-very-long/69243/102 "2001-06-22T22:17:52Z")
**Fenris** : Yeah I figured your inclusion of The Essential Ellison on v.2.0 was just an oversight, but I wasn’t sure. On Bear, I’m more than happy to go with the consensus, I don’t feel particularly strongly on that one. I see we already have another vote for Blood Music. I’ve changed my mind on Bradley for the reasons I stated earlier. I stand by my rejection of Norton, but I’ll concede that it appears that I’m outvoted 😃 . And now, just to see if I can trigger your righteous wrath 😛 , I offer the following addition to the pre-Campbell selections: Jack London’s Before Adam. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2001, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-every-well-read-science-fiction-fan-should-read-maybe-very-long/69243/103 "2001-06-23T04:03:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > \*\*Maybe I’ll do a “Essential Fantasy” list later. > > Fenris > \*\* Then I start by suggesting: The Old Testament. Yes I know, calling the Bible “fantasy” will rile quite a few people. But you can’t deny it’s influence on myth/fantasy. Ancient mythology: Greek, Norse, Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Celtic, Chinese, Vedic/Buddhist, American Indian. Beowulf The King Arthur legend. One Thousand and One Nights. The Divine Comedy (which I know was also on the SF list; it’s great enough to count as either.) The Brothers Grimm. Ivanhoe (introduced 19th century readers to the “romantic past” novel). The works of Washington Irving. various Tall Tale characters such as Paul Bunyan, etc. Alice in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass. The Wizard of Oz (and _some_ of it’s sequels) Tarzan of the Apes, and sequels (hard to categorize this; fantasy? SF? adventure?) The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings trilogy. The Narnia stories by C.S. Lewis. This list doesn’t even begin to cover the modern fantasy period, and I’m sure it overlooks a lot of older storys too (Baron Munchausen; Don Quioxte). But it should be a start. ---
**Author:** ![clayton\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@clayton\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clayton_e)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2001, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-every-well-read-science-fiction-fan-should-read-maybe-very-long/69243/104 "2001-06-23T04:32:28Z")
One title, (maybe it’s in here already, i’m lazy so I’m not gonna read them all) “Earth Abides” by George R. Stewart ---
**Author:** ![barker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@barker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barker)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2001, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-every-well-read-science-fiction-fan-should-read-maybe-very-long/69243/105 "2001-06-23T04:46:48Z")
All these suggestions and no mention of anything by \*\*Ben Bova \*\*. Although his more popular and recent books (\*MARS, The Kinsman Saga \*) didn’t break new ground, some of his earlier works were pretty good. A couple of his books that were later woven into _The Kinsman Saga_ that were notable were \* As on a Darkling Plain\* (1949 I think) and _Millennium_ (1976). In general, **Bova’s** ideas on the social uses of technology were pretty controversial when they were first presented. Just hated to see him left out altogether ---
**Author:** ![celestina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/258eb7/32.png) [@celestina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/celestina)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2001, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-every-well-read-science-fiction-fan-should-read-maybe-very-long/69243/106 "2001-06-23T17:06:18Z")
Hey, Fenris, on your list you’ve got _Bloodchild_ under the 1980s. This collection was published in 1996. ---
**Author:** ![Saltire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saltire/32/553_2.png) [@Saltire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saltire)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2001, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-every-well-read-science-fiction-fan-should-read-maybe-very-long/69243/107 "2001-06-23T22:40:11Z")
I know you said you didn’t want any more additions, but you also said you wanted another anthology. Right now I’m re-reading Galaxy: 30 Years of Innovative Science Fiction. I’m no expert on short stories, but this one seems like a good choice. Edited by Fredrick Pohl, it has Damon Knight’s To Serve Man, Sturgeon’s Slow Sculpture, John Varley’s Overdrawn at the Memory Bank and several other greats I can’t think of right now. Another choice could be Asimov’s collection The Super Hugos. The attendees voted among the previous short fiction winners to pick their favorites of other years. It is a collection of really bigtime short stories. Here’s a list of the contents: [http://www.msen.com/~muffin/Books/Contents/AsimovedIsaacTheSuperHugos0.html](http://www.msen.com/~muffin/Books/Contents/AsimovedIsaacTheSuperHugos0.html) Ellison got in the last one twice, so maybe you could call this a good anthology to showcase him. I think he’s also in the Galaxy book, but I can’t remember which story. By the way, I’m awed by the SF-literateness of you all. I think of myself as a serious reader of science fiction, but I couldn’t hold a candle to the least of the people on this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-every-well-read-science-fiction-fan-should-read-maybe-very-long/69243/108 "2001-06-24T17:13:43Z")
If you’re going to do this in an official, spiffy way, it would be a good idea to clean up the misspellings, make sure you got the years right, and drop all the self-indulgent choices. What you’ve got now is pretty close to a honest, generally approved list, so you should go all the way and make it look a little better. Do you own a copy of _The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction_? You should get one so you can check your references. Here’s my comments on the choices then: \> Pre-Campbell: \> \> Dante’s Inferno-Dante Alighieri (World building) \> Gulliver’s Travels-Jonathon Swift This should be Jonathan. \> Frankenstein-Mary Shelly This should be Shelley. \> From the Earth To the Moon-Jules Verne \> 20,000 Leagues under the Sea-Jules Verne \> The Lost World-Arthur Conan Doyle \> Flatland-Donald Abbot His name was Edwin A. Abbott. \> War of the Worlds-H.G. Wells \> The Time Machine-H.G. Wells \> Island of Dr. Moreau-H.G. Wells I would drop _The Island of Dr. Moreau_. Two Wells novels are enough for a list this size, and _The Island of Dr. Moreau_ just isn’t important enough. Tom Swift and His Motor-Cycle or Fun and Adventures on the Road-Victor Appleton II (early boy’s SCIENCE-adventure, predecessor to Heinlein’s juvies) I would drop this. Nobody reads Tom Swift anymore. If you’re going to list something everyone reads as their first book, why not list something by Andre Norton? \> A Princess of Mars-Edgar Rice Burroughs \> Ralph 124C41±Hugo Gernsback (the guy defined Science \> Fiction for 20 years or so. He inspired Heinlein, \> Weinbaum, “Doc” Smith, etc. It’s not a great book, but \> it’s important. Plus it’s loads of fun) I thought _Ralph 124C41+_ was terrible on every level - badly plotted, not particularly fun to read, elitist (I mean in the sense of being full of high-class snobbery), hopeless in its predictions for the future in social terms, and not even very good in its predictions for the future in technological terms. It wasn’t really that hard to predict TV in the early 20th century. The hard part was getting its social effects straight. \> First Lensman OR Skylark of Space by E.E. “Doc” Smith (I \> prefer Skylark) \> A Martian Odessey and Other Stories- Stanley Weinbaum It’s Odyssey. \> Before the Golden Age-Isaac Asmiov ed. Since you spell Asimov right elsewhere, this is presumably just a typo. \> R.U.R.-Karal Capek It’s Karel. \> At the Mountains of Madness-H.P. Lovecraft \> The Moon Pool-A. Merritt \> Last and First Men-Olaf Stapledon \> \> Campbell to the 50’s \> \> The Past Through Tomorrow-Robert Heinlein \> I, Robot-Isaac Asimov \> The SF Hall of Fame, Vol 1, 2a and 2b-Ben Bova (ed) \> Adventures in Time and Space-Healy, McComas(?) ed It’s Raymond J. Healy and J. Francis McComas. \> Faharenheit 451-Ray Bradbury It’s Fahrenheit. \> Illustrated Man-Ray Bradbury \> The Unknown-Stanley Schmidt ed. (Reprints from Unknown \> Magazine) Why not put this on a list of required books for fantasy instead? \> Foundation-Isaac Asimov \> Foundation and Empire-Isaac Asimov \> Second Foundation-Isaac Asimov Is this currently in print in a combined edition? If it was, you could list it as one book rather than three. Or why not list just the first book? You don’t seem compelled to list all the books of a series elsewhere. (You don’t list the sequels to _The Caves of Steel_, _Dune_, _Dragonflight_, or _Gateway_.) \> 1984-George Orwell \> Lest Darkness Fall-L. Sprague DeCamp \> \> The '50s- Juvies and more \> Have Spacesuit, Will Travel-Robert Heinlein (The \> archtypical juvinile S.F. book) These words should be archetypal and juvenile. \> Puppet Masters-Robert Heinlein You don’t need this much Heinlein. Drop this book. \> The Stars, My Destination-Alfred Bester \> Caves of Steel-Isaac Asimov \> The Lovers-Philip Jose Farmer \> Nightmares and Geezenstacks-Fredric Brown \> Atlas Shrugged-Ayn Rand (because, regardless of what you \> thought of it, it influenced a LOT of people) Yes, but did it really influence science fiction readers in particular? Reading Ayn Rand might be important for understanding the various intellectual influences in late 20th century America, but it’s not really relevant to science fiction. \> Gladiator-at-Law-Fredrik Pohl/C.M. Kornbluth It’s Frederik. In any case, _The Space Merchants_ is a much more important book by these two authors. \> A Treasury of Great Science Fiction vol 1 and 2-Anthony \> Boucher ed \> Day of the Triffids-John Wyndham \> The Body Snatchers-Jack Finney The movie of this was important. The book isn’t. \> Selected Stories of Theodore Sturgeon-Theodore Sturgeon \> More Than Human-Theodore Sturgeon \> Brainwave Poul Anderson I don’t think _Brainwave_ is important enough for this list. \> City-Clifford Simak \> Slan-A.E. Van Vogt \> Mission of Gravity-Hal Clement \> \> The 60’s \> Starship Troopers-Robert Heinlein \> Stranger in a Strange Land-Robert Heinlein \> Moon is a Harsh Misteress-Robert Heinlein It’s Mistress, but I don’t think you need three Heinlein novels here. I suggest dropping both _Starship Troopers_ and _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_. \> Canticle for Leibowitz-Walter M. Miller, Jr \> Sirens of Titan-Kurt Vonnegut (maybe. I don’t like \> Vonnegut, I hated Cat’s Cradle but I had to choose \> something I would just drop Vonnegut entirely. He’s important to literature in general, but he’s actually marginal to science fiction. \> Davy-Edgar Pangborn \> Solaris-Stanislaw Lem \> Norstrilla-Cordwainder Smith This is spelled Norstrilia. It’s Cordwainer. All of Smith’s stories (which with a couple of minor exceptions belong to a unified future he called the Instrumentality of Mankind) are now available in two books, _Norstrilia_ and _The Rediscovery of Man_ (from NESFA Press). I suggest you list _The Rediscovery of Man_, since that has all of Smith’s famous short stories). \> Dune-Frank Herbert \> The Hugo Winners Vol 1-Isaac Asimov (great collection and \> contains the short version of “Flowers for Algernon” by \> Daniel Keyes) \> Lord of Light-Roger Zelazny \> Pilgrimmage: The Book of the People-Zenna Henderson It’s spelled Pilgrimage. All of Henderson’s stories of the People (including all of _Pilgrimage_) is now included in a single volume called _Ingathering_ (also published by NESFA Press). \> The People Trap- Robert Sheckley \> Babel-17-Samuel Delany \> Dangerous Visions-Harlan Ellison ed \> Shockwave Rider-Frank Brunner It’s John Brunner. \> Childhood’s End-Arthur C. Clarke \> Expedition To Earth(?)-Arthur C. Clarke \> The (original version of) Bloody Sun-Marion Zimmer \> Bradley \> \> The 70’s \> A Wrinkle in Time-Madyline L’Engle \> Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep-Philip K. Dick Move both the L’Engle and the Dick back to the '60’s list. It’s Madeleine. \> The Dispossessed OR The Left hand of Darkness-Urusula K. \> LeGuin It’s Ursula K. Le Guin. \> Dragonflight-Anne McCaffery (important for how much it \> inspired-note that the story first appeared in '67) It’s McCaffrey. \> Forever War-Joe Haldeman \> Mote In God’s Eye-Jerry Pournelle and Larry Niven \> Ringworld-Larry Niven \> Neutron Star-Larry Niven \> Deathbird Stories-Harlan Ellison \> The Essential Ellison-Harlan Ellison Ellison just isn’t that important. Drop _The Essential Ellison_. \> Gateway-Fredrik Pohl It’s Frederik. \> The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy-Douglas Adams \> Rendevous With Rama-Arthur C. Clarke \> Callahan’s Crosstime Saloon-Spider Robinson (The first \> story “The Guy With the Eyes” was a breakthrough story \> for Analog. It was a complete divergence for them. \> Midnight at the Well of Souls-Jack Chalker (My last self \> indulgent choice. I loved this book.) Drop the Chalker. He’s just not that important. Even the Robinson isn’t that important. \> The 80’s \> The Barbie Murders (AKA Picnic on Nearside) OR \> Persistance of Vision-John Varley \> Uplift War OR Startide Rising-David Brin \> Ender’s Game-Orson Scott Card \> Neuromancer-William Gibson (Yuk: I don’t care for this, \> but it’s important to the genre) \> True Names and other Dangers-Vernor Vinge (Waaay out of \> print and collectible, but important) \> Mirrorshades-Bruce Sterling ed \> Bloodchild-Octavia Butler \> Dragon’s EggRobert Forward \> \> The 90s and beyond \> Quarantine-Greg Egan \> Hyperion-Dan Simmons \> Vacuum Diagrams-Stephen Baxter \> A Fire Upon the Deep-Vernor Vinge \> To Say Nothing of the Dog-Connie Willis \> The Borders of Infinity-Lois McMaster Bujold \> Guns of the South-Harry Turtledove \> Dark Matter-Sheree R. Thomas I’m dubious about some of these titles, but we don’t know enough yet to say which of the novels of the past dozen years are the one that will last. Putting _Dark Matter_ on the list strikes me as really stretching it though. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-every-well-read-science-fiction-fan-should-read-maybe-very-long/69243/109 "2001-06-25T00:15:47Z")
**Wendell Wagner** : Many valid criticisms, even the nitpicky grammar ones 😃 . I particularly agree with the call on The Space Merchants ( obviously, since I argued for its inclusion elsewhere ). But I’ll make just a couple of comments on points where I disagree most strongly: > [@](#): > > Ellison just isn’t that important. Drop The Essential Ellison. Heathen!!! 😃 In disagree strongly with your assesment. His importance extends beyond just the Dangerous Visions collections ( which were hugely influential ). His short-fiction was emblematic of the “young turk” movement and significant in of itself. At any rate the inclusion of The Essential Ellison appears to have been an accident, as **Fenris** has already said he wants to largely avoid omnibus “Best of” volumes. I believe he also wants to largely avoid series, though he seems to be making an exception for Foundation. > [@](#): > > You don’t need this much Heinlein. I both agree and disagree. Cutting The Puppetmasters and Starship Troopers I could maybe see ( though I can see the **Fenris’** side as well ) - I argued for the latter earlier. But I’d still resist cutting The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. Stranger in a Strange Land obviously _must_ be included. But, IMHO, it is…well, not quite _inferior_ Heinlein…but not his strongest work either. I think The Moon… is definitive Heinlein as literature, as an expression of his libertarian views, and even covers the militaristic sf that others have argued is part of what makes Starship Troopers so significant. > [@](#): > > I’m dubious about some of these titles, but we don’t know enough yet which of the novels of the past dozen years of the past dozen years are the ones that will last. Well, obviously 😉 . I don’t really disagree with this point, but I’d say that the modern list is going to be the most subjective of an already subjective list. I’ve never even heard of the Connie Willis book ( I’ll have to check it out ), but I’m not going to argue it, because everyone else seems comfortable with it. For the modern stuff, all you can do is throw out suggestions and see what takes hold by consensus. We’ve already seen some back and forth on Hyperion for instance ( I’m pro-inclusion on that one, by the way ). I tossed out Sherri Tepper as a possibility, but that didn’t seem to ignite any fires. My suggestion of Cherryh ( Cyteen ) did ( or at least **Fenris** liked it and no one has reacted with abject horror to it yet ). And there’s been a little talk about which ( if any ) Greg Bear to include. It’s inevitable that this section will be a little unstable. Just my $.02 🙂 . - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-every-well-read-science-fiction-fan-should-read-maybe-very-long/69243/110 "2001-06-25T02:26:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Do you own a copy of _The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction_? You should get one so you can check your references. Here’s my comments on the choices then:\*\* Well, it’s not “official” in any way. Like I said in the original post, it would be possible to come up with a parallel yet equally valid list. Thanks for the help with the spelling. Most of this was done during spare minutes at work. I do have a copy of The Encyclopedia of SF, but it’s too huge to lug around. \*\* > [@](#): > > \> Island of Dr. Moreau-H.G. Wells > > I would drop _The Island of Dr. Moreau_. Two Wells novels are enough for a list this size, and _The Island of Dr. Moreau_ just isn’t important enough. > > Tom Swift and His Motor-Cycle or Fun and Adventures on the Road-Victor Appleton II (early boy’s SCIENCE-adventure, predecessor to Heinlein’s juvies). > > I would drop this. Nobody reads Tom Swift anymore. If you’re going to list something everyone reads as their first book, why not list something by Andre Norton? > \*\* I think Moreau is important, but you’re right, it’s the least important of the three and there is quite a bit of Wells. It’s gone. And I agree with you on Tom Swift. I actually read part of one at a local B&N and it wasn’t particularly science-fiction-ish. It’s gone. \*\* > [@](#): > > \> Ralph 124C41±Hugo Gernsback (the guy defined Science > \> Fiction for 20 years or so. He inspired Heinlein, > \> Weinbaum, “Doc” Smith, etc. It’s not a great book, but > \> it’s important. Plus it’s loads of fun) > > I thought _Ralph 124C41+_ was terrible on every level - badly plotted, not particularly fun to read, elitist (I mean in the sense of being full of high-class snobbery), hopeless in its predictions for the future in social terms, and not even very good in its predictions for the future in technological terms. It wasn’t really that hard to predict TV in the early 20th century. The hard part was getting its social effects straight. > \*\* I disagree. I think it was a fun travelogue and I like the sense of optimism about the future. Besides, Asimov, Heinlein, “Doc” Smith have all cited Gernsback as an influence. Despite what lit-crit types say (not you… people like Clute and his ilk) I think it’s an extremely important story that has been unfairly neglected in past years. He also predicted radar in it. \*\* > [@](#): > > \> The Unknown-Stanley Schmidt ed. (Reprints from Unknown > \> Magazine) > > Why not put this on a list of required books for fantasy instead?\*\* Because it doesn’t really fit there either. Many of the stories in Unknown weren’t really fantasy either (Sinister Barrier by Russell, Fear by Hubbard to name two). When Unknown died, many of the stories Campbell had left were moved into Astounding, changing the tone of the magazine. It was a unique magazine that had all too short of a life. \*\* > [@](#): > > \> Foundation-Isaac Asimov > \> Foundation and Empire-Isaac Asimov > \> Second Foundation-Isaac Asimov > > Is this currently in print in a combined edition? If it was, you could list it as one book rather than three. Or why not list just the first book? You don’t seem compelled to list all the books of a series elsewhere. (You don’t list the sequels to _The Caves of Steel_, _Dune_, _Dragonflight_, or _Gateway_.)\*\* Because #1) It’s currently not available in a combined edition. #2) The three books combined have (I’d suspect) a shorter word-count than Dune, #3) The second and third books are far better and more important than the first, but without the first, they’re not going to make as much sense and #4) It’s consistantly discussed as one of the seminal works of science-fiction and I think the casual reader of SF should be familiar with it, whereas I don’t think the casual reader needs to read Beyond the Blue Event Horizon, God-Emperor of Dune or Dolphins of Pern. \*\* > [@](#): > > \> Puppet Masters-Robert Heinlein > > You don’t need this much Heinlein. Drop this book. > \*\* No. \*\* > [@](#): > > \> Atlas Shrugged-Ayn Rand (because, regardless of what you \> thought of it, it influenced a LOT of people) > > Yes, but did it really influence science fiction readers in particular? Reading Ayn Rand might be important for understanding the various intellectual influences in late 20th century America, but it’s not really relevant to science fiction.\*\* !!! Most libertarian science fiction (and there’s a lot of it) comes straight out of the Rand school. Baen Books has made an entire line based on libertarian sf (overstatement, but…) \*\* > [@](#): > > \> Gladiator-at-Law-Fredrik Pohl/C.M. Kornbluth > In any case, _The Space Merchants_ is a much more important book by these two authors.\*\* I’ll conceed this one. \*\* > [@](#): > > \> The Body Snatchers-Jack Finney > The movie of this was important. The book isn’t. > \*\* Actually, since I’m leaving Puppet Masters in, I think you’re right, I don’t need two paranoid '50s “the aliens are hidden amongst us” books. \*\* > [@](#): > > \> Brainwave Poul Anderson > > I don’t think _Brainwave_ is important enough for this list. > \*\* I’m torn on this one. I’ll think about it. \*\* > [@](#): > > \> Starship Troopers-Robert Heinlein > \> Stranger in a Strange Land-Robert Heinlein > \> Moon is a Harsh Misteress-Robert Heinlein > > I don’t think you need three Heinlein novels here. I suggest dropping both _Starship Troopers_ and _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_.\*\* I disagree again. I’ve explained previously why I want Starship Troopers, but let me add: imagine going to a science-fiction convention, or just hanging around on rec.arts.sf.written and not being able to discuss Starship. It’s not Heinlein’s best by any means, but any book that can, 40 years later, _still_ start violent flame-wars at the mere mention of it’s name is influential. Moon stays because it’s probably Heinlein’s best adult book. \*\* > [@](#): > > \> Sirens of Titan-Kurt Vonnegut (maybe. I don’t like > \> Vonnegut, I hated Cat’s Cradle but I had to choose > \> something > I would just drop Vonnegut entirely. He’s important to literature in general, but he’s actually marginal to science fiction.\*\* You twisted my arm. It’s gone. 😃 \*\* > [@](#): > > \> Norstrilla-Cordwainder Smith > All of Smith’s stories (which with a couple of minor exceptions belong to a unified future he called the Instrumentality of Mankind) are now available in two books, _Norstrilia_ and _The Rediscovery of Man_ (from NESFA Press). I suggest you list _The Rediscovery of Man_, since that has all of Smith’s famous short stories). > \*\* No omnibus editions (this would include the Henderson). I’m a big fan of NESFA, but their stuff isn’t for the new SF reader. And Norstrilia is A)IMHO better than his short stories and B)is interesting to compare and contrast with Dune given the similarities of their respective plots. (Both feature young men, on planets that produce immortality drugs who have to master their psychic talents to defeat evil people who want to take control of their planets.) \*\* > [@](#): > > \> The Essential Ellison-Harlan Ellison > > Ellison just isn’t that important. Drop _The Essential Ellison_.\*\* It’s off. Like I said, no omnibus editions. But I disagree about his lack of importance. \*\* > [@](#): > > \> Midnight at the Well of Souls-Jack Chalker > > Drop the Chalker. He’s just not that important. Even the Robinson isn’t that important.\*\* Nope. Chalker is a return to big, free-wheeling, adventure-for-the-sake-of-adventure space-opera. No science trappings like in Ringworld or Rama, no deep character studies like The Dispossessed, just plain old-fashioned fun, which I found a welcome change from the earlier '70s stuff. \*\* > [@](#): > > \> Dark Matter-Sheree R. Thomas > > I’m dubious about some of these titles, but we don’t know enough yet to say which of the novels of the past dozen years are the one that will last. Putting _Dark Matter_ on the list strikes me as really stretching it though. \*\* I agree that we don’t know which ones will last, which is why the '80s and the '90s are so much smaller than the '50s. Regarding the anthology, there aren’t many Black SF authors. I’d like to try to give the few there are a bit of a spotlight. Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Atrael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Atrael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atrael)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-every-well-read-science-fiction-fan-should-read-maybe-very-long/69243/111 "2001-06-25T13:00:09Z")
> [@](#): > > I would drop this. Nobody reads Tom Swift anymore. If you’re going to list something everyone reads as their first book, why not list something by Andre Norton? and > [@](#): > > And I agree with you on Tom Swift. I actually read part of one at a local B&N and it wasn’t particularly science-fiction-ish. It’s gone. I dis-agree. While it’s probably true that nobody reads the original Tom Swift series anymore (although I own most of them in first edition), don’t forget that the series went on from the original author “Victor Appelton” all the way up to “Victor Appelton IV”. New books in the series were published as late as 1986. That’s a run of a series centering around one “character” of about 80 years easily. Any other series like that around? For science fiction? And while it’s true that if you pick up an original Swift book, it reads as extremely campy, don’t forget that they originally were written in the early 1900’s. So what doesn’t look like science fiction now, at the time, really was. A motorcycle in 2001, is no big deal…in 1904 ( I think that’s when it was published) they were very new. In fact, they were only really “invented” around 1892. I recently picked up the original “From the Earth to the Moon” by Verne, and it was horrible. Even though it’s kind of a “classic”, it’s extremely hard to read by today’s standards of technology, and writing. Check out e-bay sometime, and search for Victor Appelton II, you’ll find that especially the Tom Swift Jr. series is still highly traded. This is still a series that is among the first science fiction that a lot of kids read…around the age of 7 or 8. Or maybe I’m just sensitive because it’s the first that I read 😃 Still, while the books themselves may not influence other writers, I still believe that they have an impact with the young audience. After all, you both recognized them, didn’t you? Long before I read Heinlein or Norton, I read these. ---
**Author:** ![Myron\_Van\_Horowitzski](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Myron\_Van\_Horowitzski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myron_Van_Horowitzski)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-every-well-read-science-fiction-fan-should-read-maybe-very-long/69243/112 "2001-06-25T19:22:01Z")
Just wanted to point out that _Brainwave_ is included in Volume I of Boucher’s _Treasury_. Better dust 'em off, Fenris! ---
**Author:** ![Protesilaus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Protesilaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Protesilaus)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-every-well-read-science-fiction-fan-should-read-maybe-very-long/69243/113 "2001-06-25T22:32:26Z")
Although I haven’t read it yet, Mark Twain’s A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court is considered to be the first story to use time travel as we think of it today. Since time travel is such a big subgenre, it seems to me that it was significantly influential. ---
**Author:** ![Myron\_Van\_Horowitzski](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Myron\_Van\_Horowitzski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myron_Van_Horowitzski)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2001, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-every-well-read-science-fiction-fan-should-read-maybe-very-long/69243/114 "2001-06-26T00:49:02Z")
::frantically dusting off books:: Er… That is, _Brainwave_ can be found in Volume _II_ of Boucher’s _Treasury_. ---
**Author:** ![Marvel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/779978/32.png) [@Marvel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvel)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2001, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-every-well-read-science-fiction-fan-should-read-maybe-very-long/69243/115 "2001-06-26T00:50:09Z")
I totally agree with you about reading mythology due to its influences. I’ve signed up for a “Classical Mythology” class this fall and I’ve already bought my copy of Ovid’s “Metamorphosis.” I am SO looking forward to that class! Patty ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2001, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-every-well-read-science-fiction-fan-should-read-maybe-very-long/69243/116 "2001-06-26T12:32:58Z")
You’re not being consistent in not including omnibus editions. You’re including various volumes of _The Science Fiction Hall of Fame_ and _The Hugo Winners_, as well as the _Dark Matters_ anthology, but you don’t want to accept the NESFA Press editions. What distinction are you trying to make here? The NESFA Press aren’t scholarly editions or some such. They’re the only way to find those particular stories. The Zenna Henderson and Cordwainer Smith stories are only available in print in the NESFA Press editions. It’s either use them or spend hours looking though used bookstores for old copies of those books. You greatly overestimate the influence of Jack Chalker. Most people who like his early books say that his recent ones are not nearly as good. I can’t think of any writer of importance who was influenced by Chalker. You also greatly overestimate the influence of libertarianism on science fiction. I think you really need to talk to a larger group of science fiction fans. You wildly overestimate the influence of Harlan Ellison. You apparently believe the hype that Ellison spreads about himself. Other than editing _Dangerous Visions_, Ellison had no influence on the New Wave. The important British writers in that movement - Brian Aldiss, J. G. Ballard, Michael Moorcock, Christopher Priest, Barrington Bailey, M. John Harrison, Charles Platt, etc. - had written their most important works in that style before Ellison even discovered the New Wave. (And, furthermore, most of those people despise Ellison.) Even the American writers of this school - Samuel Delany, Roger Zelazny, Thomas Disch, etc. - had settled into their styles long before _Dangerous Visions_ came out. Ellison’s only contribution was to edit a volume showcasing a movement that was already past its peak by the time it came out. I’m willing accept putting _Dangerous Visions_ and _Deathbird Stories_ on the list, but you should be wary of accepting Ellison’s stories at face value. Ellison is a pathological liar. Many of the people who’ve met Ellison have a story about how he’s lied to them. (I even have such a story.) Both Christopher Priest and Charles Platt have written pamphlets about the lies that Ellison has told. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2001, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-every-well-read-science-fiction-fan-should-read-maybe-very-long/69243/117 "2001-06-26T14:27:51Z")
**Wendell Wagner** : Well, you can’t say you don’t hold strong opinions 😉 . Libertarianism in sf? Significant, but not hugely so, IMHO. Perhaps it is more significant for the fact that so much libertarian fiction tends to be sf. Or at least that’s my only slightly-informed impression and what I’ve heard - I’m no libertarian. Why this would be, I have no idea. At any rate I probably wouldn’t include Ayn Rand either ( I can’t stand her writing, actually ), but this is **Fenris’** list ultimately and he has made it clear that he doesn’t consider it _the_ definitive list, just _a_ list, with other possible parallel lists being equally valid. Including what is definitely a seminal work for a particular ( non-mainstream, but still persistent ) _strand_ of sf, doesn’t seem out of line to me. On Ellison - You’re just wrong. IMHO 🙂 . Remember - Seven Hugo’s, three Nebula’s, three awards from the Writer’s Guild of America. Yes, he’s an egotist, a self-promoter, a little shady, and apparently a bit of a touchy prick, with numerous enemies. But the fact that you and many others despise the man is immaterial. His talent is undeniable. Well, okay, it _is_ deniable, since you’re doing it 😃 - But quite a few disagree with your assesment. Including the Encyclopedia of Science Fiction you referenced earlier. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2001, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-every-well-read-science-fiction-fan-should-read-maybe-very-long/69243/118 "2001-06-26T14:54:44Z")
\*\* > [@](#): > > You also greatly overestimate the influence of libertarianism on science fiction. I think you really need to talk to a larger group of science fiction fans. \*\* First, you greatly underestimate the effectiveness of courtesy. Please do not presume to judge my background or number and background of the fans I know. Second, it is a sad, transparent tactic to pretend that those who do not share your prejudices have either a limited knowledge base or “greatly overstate” things. Third, one (1) libertarian novel in a list of about 100 books would not be considered a “wild overstatement” by most people. Third, an off-the-top-of-my-head list of science fiction writers who are either libertarian or were influenced by Rand: Poul Anderson, Jerry Pournelle, F. Paul Wilson, Melinda Snodgrass, Robert Heinlein (to a degree), Larry Niven, L. Neil Smith, Matt Ruff (anti-influenced), Ken MacLeod (to a degree), John Varley, James Hogan, etc. Plus, as I mentioned, Baen Books seems devoted to pushing a libertarian agenda in much of it’s line. \*\* > [@](#): > > You wildly overestimate the influence of Harlan Ellison. You apparently believe the hype that Ellison spreads about himself \. \*\* You are apparently not reading what I wrote. Perhaps you might try reading for comprehension. And again, please don’t project your prejudices on me. My feelings on Ellison as a person are irrelevant to my feelings for Ellison as a writer. Ellison has been writing for over 50 years and has had a number of classic stories. Wanting two collections of his work is not “wildly overestimating” by rational standards. It is possible to debate without gross mischaracterization of one’s opponent’s position. \*\* > [@](#): > > I’m willing accept putting _Dangerous Visions_ and _Deathbird Stories_ on the list, \*\* Um…gosh, thanks! :rolleyes: Let me be clear. It’s _my_ list. I’m happy to take suggestions, discuss the choices I’ve made, and listen to reasoned argument but ultimately it’s _my_ list. You seem to be getting rather upset about it. Might I suggest that it might be better for your emotional well-being to either ignore this list or make your own? Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Atrael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Atrael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atrael)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2001, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-every-well-read-science-fiction-fan-should-read-maybe-very-long/69243/119 "2001-06-26T18:18:09Z")
Wendell Wagner– I agree, don’t forget that this is a forum for **opinion** if you want anyone to respect yours, you need to have respect for everyone else’s. You have some good comments, and opinions, but unless someone held an election for “King of all Science Fiction Literature”, they mean no more than anyone else’s. So, Fenris…how about that re-think of Tom Swift? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2001, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-every-well-read-science-fiction-fan-should-read-maybe-very-long/69243/120 "2001-06-26T18:51:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Atrael \* > \*\*So, Fenris…how about that re-think of Tom Swift? 🙂 \*\* **Atrael** , the one I read parts of (Tom Swift and his Motor-Cycle) didn’t feel like Science-Fiction, it felt like an adventure story. Assuming that’s a representative Tom Swift book, I’d put it in the same catagory that I’d put much of H.Rider Haggard’s stuff ore some of Burroughs’ stuff: Not quite Scientific Romance, not quite Adventure story. It’s a hard call, because Heinlein and several other authors (I believe Asimov was one) have said Tom Swift was an influence. Was the one I skimmed typical of Tom Swift? Fenris [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-every-well-read-science-fiction-fan-should-read-maybe-very-long/69243.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-every-well-read-science-fiction-fan-should-read-maybe-very-long/69243.md?page=7)