A small reminder.
In IMHO, opinions are just that-opinions. As such, they can be neither right or wrong. Please try to keep that in mind from now on, o.k.?
Yes, indeedy.
In fact, Heinlein refers to Rand at one point in “The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress” when Professor Bernardo de la Paz says, in a discussion of political theory (paraphrasing from memory) “I can get along with a Randite.”
Bearing in mind that (A)it is never safe to assume that viewpoints represented by characters are those of the author and (B)this is particularly true of Heinlein, who explored many different ways of organizing governments both in his fiction and in his nonfiction writings, I think it would be easy to conclude that he was aware of, and at least not hostile to libertarianism. As always, YMMV,
Oh, and please stick to your guns regarding Chalker. His big sweeping series are sheer fun as well as filled with some provocative ideas about identity. I have reread a number of his series (NOT just the Well World stuff, but the Lords of the Diamond, the Soul Rider Series and others) a number of times and he still pulls off the old sense of wonder for me. Oh, and anyone who writes a biography of Scrooge McDuck (in spite of opposition from those bozos at Disney)is first-rate in my book.
Hometownboy
I’m sure we could all quibble happily for weeks over this list. Hell, I could start with the first entry - why just the Inferno, why not the whole of the Divine Comedy? And, if you’re introducing quasi-Utopian world-building like Atlas Shrugged, why not include the foundation of this sub-genre, Thomas More’s Utopia? (In the original Latin, naturally;)). But this really would be quibbling…
I think Wendell Wagner makes, perhaps tangentially, one valid point, about the British “New Wave” being well-established before Dangerous Visions. It would be nice to see a representative work from this area, and the obvious choice is… errrr… ummmmm… got it! Moorcock’s The Final Programme. Moorcock is a writer of notable significance, and The Final Programme is definable as SF rather than fantasy, and it does exemplify this particular sub-genre. (And I’ve actually got a copy of this one, so I can stay at 38 embarrassing holes in my collection.)
Two of those holes, BTW, have been hotly debated here: Atlas Shrugged and Ralph 124C41+. Personally, I’m happy to see both of them remain. Atlas Shrugged, whatever anyone thinks of Rand or libertarianism (and I, personally, am a fan of neither), is an important book. And the Gernsback book (though it is widely acknowledged to be, err, not very good) is a historical document, and inspired a lot of people to think “I could do better than that!”, so I think it deserves its place.
Come to think of it, I don’t much like Ellison… but I find it impossible to deny the man’s importance to the genre. Dislike him, yes; ignore him, no. Yes, the Ellison collections are amongst my embarrassing holes… most of them are books not widely available in the UK, or cases where I don’t feel particularly enthused about a particular author, and only have one or two books by them - a good example would be Robert Forward: the first one of his I read was Camelot 30K, and it didn’t inspire me to search out any of his others (yes, I’ve since heard that Camelot 30K was atypically bad).
Ok! Lets! 
**
You’ve convinced me that we need a Moorcock. Besides, I wanted someone from that era of “New Worlds”. But the one you’ve chosen in specifically, I’m not sure about. I’ve read a lot of Moorcock, but not this one: Isn’t The Final Programme a Jerry Cornelius novel and part of a larger series? Can it stand alone? If so, I’ll put it on. If not, perhaps a different Moorcock (I Love his “End of Time” series, but frankly don’t think it’s representative of him or the “New Wave”).
(Which 38 are you missing?)
**
And seriously, the Gernsback isn’t that bad. It’s a bit clunky and it’s not a novel at all (no rising action, no climax, no falling action), but most of it’s bad rep comes from litcrit cretins like Clute, Nicholls and Pringle (who make it out to be “unreadable” and “illiterate”). For some reason, British critics are insanely offended by Gernsback, perhaps because he, more than anyone else, set the stage for the Campbell revolution and associated SF with America.
I’ve read the book a number of times, for pleasure. It’s got clunky dialogue, stilted characterization, it’s somewhat quaint, but it also has a sense of fun and wonder and optimism and innocence that can’t be beaten. It was written as a serial and each chapter is a different installment as Ralph shows his girlfriend a wonder of the far future! If you don’t like travelogues, you might not enjoy it, but if you can get past the fact that it’s dated and not a novel, it’s a lot of fun. It’s certainly worth a read. (and “Doc” Smith and Asimov were both inspired by the sense of wonder of the book, rather than “I can do better”)
**
I’m not a fan of Ellison-the-Person either. I find him shrill. But anyone who can write “Jefty is Five”, “‘Repent Harliquin’, Said The Ticktockman”, “I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream” and so on, can’t be ignored.
Regarding getting U.S. books, try http://www.bookfinder.com , you should be able to get most of them cheaply.
**
< shudder >…it was. I hated Camelot 30k. It’s nothing like Forward’s normal stuff.
Fenris
On the subject of Ellison, I think I was disagreeing with Tamerlane more than I was with you, Fenris. I should have made that clear. He had written the following:
> In disagree strongly with your assesment. His importance
> extends beyond just the Dangerous Visions collections
> ( which were hugely influential ). His short-fiction was
> emblematic of the “young turk” movement and significant
> in of itself.
You had only written this though:
> But I disagree about his lack of importance.
My point was that Ellison was not “emblematic of the ‘young turk’ movement.” He’s never been a representative of anything but himself. The writers of the New Wave never thought of him as one of them, let alone as their designated representative. Dangerous Visions belongs on the list not so much because it’s representative of the New Wave as because it’s got a lot of good stories. I don’t particularly like the stories in Deathbird Stories, but it should stay in because there’s enough people that like them. We’re in agreement now that DV and DS stays in and The Essential Ellison is out, in any case.
Tamerlane, I don’t think that writing many good stories somehow cancels out the way that he’s been nasty to so many people. Those two facts stand and neither causes the other to disappear. It’s actually kind of common. A person can be a great writer and also be a jerk. I don’t despise Ellison. He’s never done anything to me except once get in an argument with me in one of his speeches and once told a completely pointless lie to me at one of his book signings. Neither of these things hurt me. If anything, they gave me interesting stories to tell people.
You’ve given a list of libertarian science fiction writers, but you haven’t indicated that they are specifically influenced by Ayn Rand. I’m not even sure that many of those on your list are really libertarian:
> Poul Anderson, Jerry Pournelle, F. Paul Wilson, Melinda
> Snodgrass, Robert Heinlein (to a degree), Larry Niven, L.
> Neil Smith, Matt Ruff (anti-influenced), Ken MacLeod (to
> a degree), John Varley, James Hogan, etc.
Pournelle is more of a standard conservative. So is Niven, if not as far right as Pournelle. Where did Varley ever say that he was a libertarian? He sounds like a standard liberal in the stories I’ve read. But, in any case, do you know that these writers were specifically influenced by Ayn Rand? Are you saying that everyone who’s vaguely libertarian is influenced by Rand? That’s not what I’ve noticed. I just don’t hear Rand discussed that much anymore, even by people whose opinions could be considered libertarian. I spend a lot of time hanging out at cons and going to meetings of science fiction clubs. I don’t seem to meet many people who are influenced by Rand. Have you actually talked to that many fans who are influenced by her?
If all you wanted to do was create a personal list, why start a thread about it and ask for suggestions? I was posting because you seem to be trying for something like a general-purpose list. Why go for something halfway between a general-purpose list and a personal one? I wasn’t trying to turn the list into my personal choices. If I had been, I would have dropped half of the list and added as many other books.
This is as pleasant as I get. I never use obscenity on the SDMB. I don’t think I’ve ever called someone stupid. I do point out where I think people don’t know enough about a subject, though.
Czar: Sorry 'bout my part in that. Won’t happen again.
Hometownboy:
Good catch on the “randite” comment (it took me years to figure that out, somehow). But regarding Heinlein’s non-hostility towards libertarianism, he also wrote a longish scene in Cat Who Walks Through Walls where he shows what some people consider failed libertarian societies, (The Golden Rule habitiat, the Moon), so as always, it’s impossible to guess what Heinlein was really thinking.
On Chalker, I loved his Soul Rider stuff and thought it far better than the first Well-World series (the second and third series are better left unmentioned). The Lords of the Diamond stuff was great and after years of searching, I’ve finally gotten my hands on his McDuck bio. Don’t worry, Midnight at the Well of Souls is staying!
Myron Good catch. Brainwave is off, since it’s in the Boucher.
Protesilaus: Heinlein and (aargh…someone else… )have stated that Yankee was the first time travel story as such, and it’s certainly the first of the modern man updates the past genre (which would include a lot of books: Lest Darkness Fall, The Crosstime Engineer(and it’s progressively bad sequels), Stirling’s very popular Island the Sea of Time, Guns of the South etc.) so, you’re right and I’ll add it.
Saltire The Super Hugos is in, if only because it adds two of the three Ellison stories I really wanted (“Jeffty is Five” is the third)
The Galaxy book sounds promising, but I don’t have it and for some reason the ISFDB doesn’t list a table of contents. Could you list some more stories that are included?
Fenris
Wendell Wagner:
Well, that last sentence I am more than prepared to agree on . I’m sure none of the New Wave folk ( even those who accepted that label, which many did not ) were even remotely interested in tapping a designated representative, and if they were, Ellison probably wouldn’t be their choice.
That said, even though he pre-dates them, that is the group that Ellison is most identified with. And, for better or worse, in the general public’s ( general sf public, that is ) eye, his is generally one of the first names that spring to mind for most people when that phrase is mentioned. And a lot of that has to do with Dangerous Visions.
Was Dangerous Visions important as an influence to the New Wave? Probably not. As you said, it came out towards the tail end. But what was significant about it, apart from the quality of the stories, was it’s commercial success and wide dissemination. Rightly or wrongly, it became the title of the New Wave for the non-cognoscenti. The result of shameless self-promotion on Ellison’s part? Quite possibly 
. That and its quality. But there you have it. For many, if not most casual readers, Ellison is emblematic. For that reason alone, he has a place in history, however dubiously earned.
And really, the fact that he is a fine writer, who’s written many fine stories, makes it a lot less dubious 
. He deserves a place on any sf list primarily for his writing, IMO. But he has importance as a controversial figure in the history of sf as well.
Well of course not. I absolutely agree and I hope I’m not coming off as defending Ellison, the man. I think he’s a jerk, much of the time. His rants can be amusing. They can more often be painfully tedious and appallingly egocentric. But his importance to the field of sf doesn’t depend a great deal on the quality of his personality ( the self-promotion excepted, I suppose ). I’m also a fan of Lou Reed, who’s a notorious asshole . I try not to judge the artistry by the personality.
'course, sometimes I fail - I never have been able to tolerate Rod Stewart .
Also just as an aside, I’d definitely consider both Pournelle and Niven to be libertarians, rather than “standard conservatives.” I think The legacy of Heotrot in particular bears this out. In fact I’d probably consider them the two most prominent libertarians in sf writing today. But that is most certainly IMHO .
- Tamerlane
OK, OK… Ralph is on order, ditto the Ellison… further holes will be plugged as time and bank balance permit… yes, with the use of this here new-fangled “internet” thingy, I shouldn’t have too many problems. (Besides, I live in Oxford, where there are one or two second-hand bookshops). I’ll purge my mind of vile lit-crit types and form my own opinion of Gernsback’s deathless prose. (Actually, I don’t recall Brian Aldiss being overly harsh about the book in Billion Year Spree; perhaps it’s just the more modern academic critics who don’t like it… reminds me, my unread books pile currently contains John Clute’s Appleseed, I wonder how well he translates theory into practice?)
The embarrassing 38 holes (now down to 37, I found a cheap copy of Flatland the other day) aren’t all that bad… for a start, it’s books, rather than individual list entries, so the Boucher and Bova collections account for five of them right away. And several of the ones I don’t own, I’ve still read (From the Earth to the Moon and Have Spacesuit, Will Travel fall into this category).
Regarding Moorcock; yes, The Final Programme is, technically, the first book in a tetralogy - but I think the four books are so loosely connected that TFP can legitimately stand alone. (And probably should, as the next three grow increasingly self-indulgent…) Or Behold the Man might be a good fallback choice. I agree that the Dancers at the End of Time trilogy isn’t representative (though I do like it).
So Camelot 30K isn’t typical Forward? Thank goodness for that…
YMMV, but the majority of fans I’ve talked to have read Rand and either gone through a “Rand” or “anti-Rand” phase. It seems to pass harmlessly for most people.
Pournelle and Niven have moved more towards libertarianism in recent years. See Fallen Angels among others.
Varley? I remember an interview with him somewhere about the time Golden Globe came out and he said some positive things about libertarianism. I realize that this is a fairly pathetic cite. However, it’s the best I have.
I’d also suggest that most of modern libertarian thought was at least somewhat influenced by Rand’s Objectivism. But even if they weren’t influenced by Rand specifically, I still want one libertarian book on the list at least and Atlas Shrugged nicely fits the bill. Libertarianism is a longer-lasting force in SF than say, the New Wave was, it should be represented.
**
'Cause I thought it might make for an interesting discussion (and at 3 and a half pages, I’m not alone) and because I wanted some wider input. To use a bad analogy, imagine an artist showing several concept sketches and asking for input before making the final painting.
Fenris
Ok, here’s version 3.0 of the list. Frankly at this point, the list looks extremely complete and well rounded but if you see something I’ve said I’d put on and missed or some crucial piece of the genre that must be added , lemme know. Also if you see something that really should be added (or subtracted) let me know. One thing I’d really like is a few more short-story anthologies collecting the early Campbell years.
Pre-Campbell:
Dante’s Inferno-Dante Alighieri (World building)
Gulliver’s Travels-Jonathan Swift
Frankenstein-Mary Shelley
From the Earth To the Moon-Jules Verne
20,000 Leagues under the Sea-Jules Verne
Journey to the Center of the Earth-Jules Verne
A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court-Mark Twain
Flatland-Edwin A. Abbott
War of the Worlds-H.G. Wells
The Time Machine-H.G. Wells
A Princess of Mars-Edgar Rice Burroughs
Ralph 124C41±Hugo Gernsback (the guy defined Science Fiction for 15 years or so. He inspired Heinlein, Weinbaum, “Doc” Smith, etc. It’s not a great book, but it’s important. Plus it’s loads of fun)
First Lensman OR Skylark of Space by E.E. “Doc” Smith (I prefer Skylark)
A Martian Odyssey and Other Stories- Stanley Weinbaum
Before the Golden Age-Isaac Asimov ed.
R.U.R.-Karel Capek
At the Mountains of Madness-H.P. Lovecraft
The Moon Pool-A. Merritt
Last and First Men-Olaf Stapledon
Campbell to the 50’s
The Past Through Tomorrow-Robert Heinlein
I, Robot-Isaac Asimov
Adventures in Time and Space-Raymond J. Healy and J. Francis McComas, ed.
Fahrenheit 451-Ray Bradbury
Illustrated Man-Ray Bradbury
The Unknown-Stanley Schmidt ed. (Reprints from Unknown Magazine)
Foundation-Isaac Asimov
Foundation and Empire-Isaac Asimov
Second Foundation-Isaac Asimov
1984-George Orwell
Lest Darkness Fall-L. Sprague DeCamp
The '50s- Juvies and more
Have Spacesuit, Will Travel-Robert Heinlein (The archetypal juvenile S.F. book)
Puppet Masters-Robert Heinlein
The Stars My Destination-Alfred Bester
Caves of Steel-Isaac Asimov
The Lovers-Philip Jose Farmer
Nightmares and Geezenstacks-Fredric Brown
Atlas Shrugged-Ayn Rand (because, regardless of what one thinks of it, it influenced a LOT of people)
Space Merchants-Frederik Pohl/C.M. Kornbluth
A Treasury of Great Science Fiction vol 1 and 2-Anthony Boucher, ed.
Day of the Triffids-John Wyndham
Selected Stories of Theodore Sturgeon-Theodore Sturgeon
More Than Human-Theodore Sturgeon
City-Clifford Simak
Slan-A.E. Van Vogt
Mission of Gravity-Hal Clement
Star Man’s Son (AKA Daybreak–2250 A.D) -Andre Norton
Wasp-Eric Frank Russell
The 60’s
Starship Troopers-Robert Heinlein
Stranger in a Strange Land-Robert Heinlein
Moon is a Harsh Mistress-Robert Heinlein
Canticle for Leibowitz-Walter M. Miller, Jr
Davy-Edgar Pangborn
Solaris-Stanislaw Lem
Norstrilia-Cordwainer Smith
Dune-John Herbert
Lord of Light-Roger Zelazny
Pilgrimage: The Book of the People-Zenna Henderson
The People Trap- Robert Sheckley
Babel-17-Samuel Delany
Dangerous Visions-Harlan Ellison ed
Shockwave Rider-Frank Brunner
Childhood’s End-Arthur C. Clarke
Expedition To Earth-Arthur C. Clarke
A Wrinkle in Time-Madeleine L’Engle
Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep-Philip K. Dick
The (original version of) Bloody Sun-Marion Zimmer Bradley
The Final Programme-Michael Moorcock
The 70’s
The Dispossessed OR The Left hand of Darkness-Ursula K. Le Guin
Dragonflight-Anne McCaffrey (important for how much it inspired-note that the story first appeared in '67)
Forever War-Joe Haldeman
Mote In God’s Eye-Jerry Pournelle and Larry Niven
Ringworld-Larry Niven
Neutron Star-Larry Niven
Deathbird Stories-Harlan Ellison
Gateway-Frederik Pohl
The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy-Douglas Adams
Rendevous With Rama-Arthur C. Clarke
Callahan’s Crosstime Saloon-Spider Robinson (The first story “The Guy With the Eyes” was a breakthrough story for Analog. It was a complete divergence for them.)
Midnight at the Well of Souls-Jack Chalker (A return to “Doc” Smith style space-opera)
The 80’s
The Barbie Murders (AKA Picnic on Nearside) OR Persistance of Vision-John Varley
Uplift War OR Startide Rising-David Brin
Ender’s Game-Orson Scott Card
Blood Music-Greg Bear
Neuromancer-William Gibson
Cyteen-C.J. Cherryh
Mirrorshades-Bruce Sterling ed
Dragon’s EggRobert Forward
The 90s and beyond
Quarantine-Greg Egan
Bloodchild-Octavia Butler
Hyperion-Dan Simmons
Vacuum Diagrams-Stephen Baxter
A Fire Upon the Deep-Vernor Vinge
To Say Nothing of the Dog or Doomsday Book-Connie Willis
The Borders of Infinity-Lois McMaster Bujold
Guns of the South-Harry Turtledove
The Diamond Age-Neal Stephenson
Multi-Decade Anthologies
Dark Matter-Sheree R. Thomas, ed. Covers the entire 20th Century
The SF Hall of Fame, Vol 1, 2a and 2b-Ben Bova, ed. Covers the 40s and 50s
The Hugo Winners Vol 1-Isaac Asimov ed(great collection and contains the short version of “Flowers for Algernon” by Daniel Keyes). Covers the mid '50s through the mid '60s
The Super Hugos-Isaac Asimov, ed. Covers the mid-50s through the mid '70s
I cut True Names by Vinge because it’s just too hard to find and too expensive. If a reissue comes out (they’ve been promising one for years), I’ll put it back on. (Most of the out-of-print books can be found on Bookfinder fairly inexpensively.)
Let me know if I’ve missed any that I said I’d put on or if you have any last additions.
Thanks for the help!
Fenris
Get the nitpicking out of the way… John Herbert and Frank Brunner???
Hmmmm. This sort of hybridization has possibilities. What would the resulting stories look like from, say, Lois McMaster Baxter and Stephen Bujold? Cliff Smith and E. E. “Doc” Simak? Ursula K. Hubbard and L. Ron LeGuin? Just a thought.
I wouldn’t mind reading L. Ron Le Guin’s The Left Hand of Fear or Ursula K. Hubbard’s 10 book “Mission Dispossessed” series.
Personally though, I wanna read Harlan Heinlein’s The Beast That Had Time Enough For Love at the Heart of the World or I Have No Mouth Yet I Have Spacesuit, Will Travel
Fenris
And I wouldn’t mind reading a new thread dedicated to such science fiction cross-breeding.
Anybody?
Great list Fenris, I can see that I have a lot of reading to catch up on. I’ve only read probably about half of the list.
In regards to the “Tom Swift” books, regretfully, since you’re not including any series on the list, they probably should be left off. Since you really can’t point to any one book and say that it was influential, rather the series as a whole had an impact.
And I think that’s an important distinction that caused some of the problems here. There are a lot of different influences that a writer, or book can have. It can help shape the way other writers at the time compose stories, it can help bring in readers to the genre, a writer can use his books to help advance his political views, or even religious ones. Just because someone wasn’t the **first ** person to express a view, or is looked down upon by other writers, doesn’t matter if his writing was widely popular, and brought readers to enjoy that particular style and read more from other authors.
As to the “adventure” feel of the Tom Swift , I semi-agree. The first books probably focused more on the adventure part of it, than the science. Although I think some of the themes of the books were still pushing the advances of science past the technology of the day. For example. Tom Swift and his Electric Runabout published in 1910, dealt with the invention of an electric car that moved at a decent speed. Sky Racer was about winning a speed competition for aircraft…in 1911.
House on Wheels (1929) described an idea for creating a mobile house…with folding beds, and an electric stove. RV’s were just becoming a concept in the early 30’s. If we look at the “Tom Swift Jr.” books, you see a lot more science in the “science fiction”. Beginning in 1954, with Tome Swift Jr. and his Flying Lab , which put forth the idea of a vertical take off airplane, the series covered such things as a 3-D telejetor, which has some ideas about holography on a artificially created mist, to Race to the Moon (1958) that talked about using electro magnetic fields to counteract gravity. While we know that using that method to get to the moon isn’t going to work, the principle of opposing magnetic fields is the idea behind the maglev trains. So while I don’t think you can point to the “Tom Swift” series, and say specifically one book caused an impact on science fiction, I do strongly believe that they did spark interest in reading, and reading science fiction type stories in a young audience that grew up with an appreciation of science as a whole. For myself, I can say with all certainty that those stories I read as a child, definitely influenced me to seek a life in technical fields as an adult.