# What evidence is there that American POWs were left behind in Vietnam? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 2, 2021, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-american-pows-were-left-behind-in-vietnam/934087 "2021-03-02T02:57:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-american-pows-were-left-behind-in-vietnam/934087/1 "2021-03-02T02:57:36Z")
My title is my question. Is there credible evidence that Vietnam did not return all the POWs? ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-american-pows-were-left-behind-in-vietnam/934087/2 "2021-03-02T03:01:45Z")
None. > **[The Vietnam myth that gave us all those ‘Rambo’ movies](https://theoutline.com/post/7984/rambo-last-blood-vietnam-bo-gritz-sylvester-stallone)** > > For decades, conspiracy theorists have clung to the fiction that thousands of soldiers are being held captive in Asia. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-american-pows-were-left-behind-in-vietnam/934087/3 "2021-03-02T06:54:45Z")
Are you saying the flags and bumper stickers aren’t convincing? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-american-pows-were-left-behind-in-vietnam/934087/4 "2021-03-02T07:06:51Z")
In his memoir, _Inside Delta Force,_ (published early 2000s), former Delta commando Eric Haney stated that a significant number of Americans were POWs (a Vietnamese official even asked Haney post-war why the U.S. didn’t try to get their POWs back) and that there were rescue missions planned but that they were scrapped after leaks to the media jeopardized them. The explanation Haney put forth in the book was that the Vietnamese were planning to use them as hostages to demand reparation money from the U.S. government but the U.S. was thoroughly sick of anything Vietnam by then and would rather let the men die a quiet death, ignored. Haney stated in the book that the abandoning of those POWs was a rude shock to SpecOps forces, as it told them the U.S. government could very well choose not to rescue _them_ either if they were ever captured in combat, all the more so given the secret nature of SpecOps. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-american-pows-were-left-behind-in-vietnam/934087/5 "2021-03-02T12:13:11Z")
What evidence does he offer? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-american-pows-were-left-behind-in-vietnam/934087/6 "2021-03-02T15:19:11Z")
I’d question how much Haney might have known during his Delta Force time, being born in 1952 and all; he’d have been a very junior member by say… 1975, when he was 23, and possibly not privy to all the plans and reasoning behind them like that. It’s possible that they were training for something like that and then stopped, and he’s extrapolating why combined with internal unit lore about POWs, etc… I think that the real genesis of the whole POW myth is that unlike previous wars, the US was not left in control of the battlefield at the end of Vietnam, and the perceived large number of MIA. Similar to WWII, a whole lot of the MIA are air crew who were shot down and their bodies never found, but after WWII there was a surprisingly large effort to comb the European and Pacific battlefields and bombing targets to recover bodies. So at the end of WWII, there was some reasonable assurance that at the end of the war, anyone not accounted for was almost surely dead, but their bodies couldn’t be found or identified, mostly because nobody knew exactly where they were shot down, bailed out, etc… And there was no question of anyone remaining in German or Japanese captivity. After Korea, there was a repatriation effort to return all the POWs who were still alive- apparently it was good enough to allay any questions of remaining unreleased POWs. But in Vietnam, there wasn’t really an “end” to the war, and apparently the repatriation effort wasn’t enough to allay fears and doubt, so there was always that question as to whether the unrecovered air crews were alive or dead, and if they were alive, if they’d been captured and never returned. The climate of distrust of government and media at the time and afterward did not help calm that fear and doubt down either. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-american-pows-were-left-behind-in-vietnam/934087/7 "2021-03-02T16:01:41Z")
Also, by the end of the Vietnam war, trust in the government was at a nadir. People no longer accepted the government’s word. ---
**Author:** ![dorvann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df705f/32.png) [@dorvann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorvann)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-american-pows-were-left-behind-in-vietnam/934087/8 "2021-03-02T16:04:31Z")
Shouldn’t this be real easy to account for? There should be records of everyone who served who was shipped over to Vietnam. And there should be records of anyone who was Missing in Action. Is their a list anywhere of soldiers who went missing in Vietnam who are **not** accounted for? ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-american-pows-were-left-behind-in-vietnam/934087/9 "2021-03-02T16:25:07Z")
> [@dorvann](#): > > Is their a list anywhere of soldiers who went missing in Vietnam who are **not** accounted for? Yes but OP is asking about undisclosed POWs still held by ‘the enemy.’ MIA = POW + KIA (+ some deserters). ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-american-pows-were-left-behind-in-vietnam/934087/10 "2021-03-02T16:26:19Z")
There are a couple thousand MIAs even today. All we know is that on date {something} somewhere near the village of {wherever} they disappeared. Either their ship sank, their aircraft was shot down, or they got separated from their ground combat unit. In any case, we know for sure they didn’t come back from that particular mission. And that is _all_ we know. Were they killed promptly by the crash, or drowning, or gunfire/ explosion? Were they wounded then died alone an hour, a day, or a week later? Were they eaten by wildlife? Were they captured by somebody ranging from an angry farmer to Viet Cong guerillas to ARVN regulars and later died or were killed? Were they still in captivity in 1980, 1990, 2021? We have zero idea today and no practical way to ever find out more. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-american-pows-were-left-behind-in-vietnam/934087/11 "2021-03-02T16:52:10Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Were they captured by somebody ranging from an angry farmer to Viet Cong guerillas to **ARVN** regulars…[emphasis added] I _think_ you meant **NVA** regulars; I doubt many U.S. troops were captured by the Army of the Republic of [South] Viet Nam… ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-american-pows-were-left-behind-in-vietnam/934087/12 "2021-03-02T17:01:05Z")
D’oh! :smack: Yeah. You can tell I wasn’t there. Too young. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-american-pows-were-left-behind-in-vietnam/934087/13 "2021-03-02T19:26:30Z")
Exactly. I saw something the other day about Dorothy Marian Shelton. Her husband was a POW shot down over Laos, but apparently died during his captivity. She became convinced he was still alive. Her efforts resulted in her husband being the last American still listed as a POW instead of KIA (he was finally declared dead at the request of his children). Ultimately, she shot herself. It was all so sad and I became curious what evidence there was that some servicemen were kept as POWs after the war. I certainly can understand why she held out hope. [Wife of ‘Last POW’ Dies in Apparent Suicide (apnews.com)](https://apnews.com/article/e376ef09cf35417c245df4d5b031c65c) ---
**Author:** ![19USMC69](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/ac91a4/32.png) [@19USMC69](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/19USMC69)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-american-pows-were-left-behind-in-vietnam/934087/14 "2021-03-02T19:51:38Z")
Unless one is found, it can’t be proven. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-american-pows-were-left-behind-in-vietnam/934087/15 "2021-03-02T20:46:08Z")
True. And even if one is found, that says nothing of the fate of the other ~2000. Yes, it increases the likelihood. But from one nebulous controversial probability to the same nebulous controversial probability plus a nebulous controversial incremental probability. No satisfying answers lie in that direction. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-american-pows-were-left-behind-in-vietnam/934087/16 "2021-03-02T21:19:43Z")
Well, if one is found, I think it does more than incrementally increase the likelihood. It’s like the 99 foot tall man. A 100 foot tall man seems like an impossibility. But if you find a 99 foot tall man, while it doesn’t prove the possibility of a 100 foot tall man, it sure seems like it does a lot more than incrementally increasing the odds. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-american-pows-were-left-behind-in-vietnam/934087/17 "2021-03-03T00:08:57Z")
There is no obvious reason why Vietnam would continue to hold such people, if they were still alive (and they would be very old by now). Of course a lot of people have made a good living out of never finding anyone (c.f. 'Yamashita’s Gold). ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-american-pows-were-left-behind-in-vietnam/934087/18 "2021-03-03T00:22:56Z")
Yeah, that’s what’s so sad, an entire industry sprung up to give people false hope. ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-american-pows-were-left-behind-in-vietnam/934087/19 "2021-03-03T01:23:28Z")
> [@dorvann](#): > > Shouldn’t this be real easy to account for? There should be records of everyone who served who was shipped over to Vietnam. And there should be records of anyone who was Missing in Action. Is their a list anywhere of soldiers who went missing in Vietnam who are **not** accounted for? “MIA” is government-speak for “we have no clue what happened.” As such, anybody listed as MIA is “accounted for” only in a bureaucratic, only-on-paper sense, and not in any real-life sense. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-american-pows-were-left-behind-in-vietnam/934087/20 "2021-03-03T02:07:55Z")
I understand MIA means they haven’t recovered the body. About half the original MIA figures were known to have been killed in action: From the link in the 2nd post: > [@](#): > > When Franklin published _M.I.A._ in 1992, there were still 2,273 “unaccounted for” Americans from the Vietnam War;[according to the Department of Defense’s POW/MIA Accounting Agency](https://www.dpaa.mil/Our-Missing/Past-Conflicts/), there are still 1,587 unaccounted for as of this year. Even the original total of missing Americans in the Vietnam War is considerably smaller compared to previous conflicts; as of September 13, 2019, the Department of Defense still lists 72,661 persons as “POW/MIA” from World War II. And as Franklin points out, at least half of the unaccounted for at the time of publication were known to have been killed in action — it’s only because their bodies were not recovered or unidentifiable that they were classified as “missing.” A 1991-93 congressional investigation by John McCain and John Kerry found, “no compelling evidence that proves that any American remains alive in captivity in Southeast Asia.” Currently the Department of Defense spends $110 million per year tracking down MIAs. The majority of the 150 or so newly identified each year are from wars before Vietnam. [Vietnam War POW/MIA issue - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_POW/MIA_issue) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-american-pows-were-left-behind-in-vietnam/934087.md?page=2)