# What EVIDENCE is there that vegetables \> vitamin pills? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 12, 2011, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-vegetables-vitamin-pills/588810 "2011-07-12T23:46:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-vegetables-vitamin-pills/588810/21 "2011-07-13T23:22:55Z")
> [@tracer](#): > > I will tell you right now, I **hate** vegetables… Dude! Chill! Here, munch on this tasty carrot… I wrapped some bacon around it. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-vegetables-vitamin-pills/588810/22 "2011-07-13T23:23:59Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > and so might “oat bran, or a great big glass of water, or chewed-up newspaper” as per **tracer** 😉 Not to mention, meat. ---
**Author:** ![tellyworth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@tellyworth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tellyworth)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-vegetables-vitamin-pills/588810/23 "2011-07-14T00:37:02Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > I’d like to see your EVIDENCE – not anecdote, not authority telling you so, actual experimental evidence – that most children are innately opposed to vegetables, and that there is a reason for it. Here’s the [classic paper on the subject](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC537465/?tool=pubmed). It’s received plenty of criticism in the decades since, but the broad point still stands: young children will voluntarily eat a variety of healthy foods, including vegetables, if they are regularly offered. ---
**Author:** ![Uncertain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Uncertain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncertain)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-vegetables-vitamin-pills/588810/24 "2011-07-14T02:09:45Z")
> [@tracer](#): > > I will tell you right now, I **hate** vegetables. > How much do I hate them? > [This much](http://www.rogermwilcox.com/vegetable/). Is it really you? I’ve sent that to half a dozen people to convey my views on vegetables. (“He’s as nutty as you,” said my mother.) I laugh every time I drag it out again. Brilliant. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-vegetables-vitamin-pills/588810/25 "2011-07-14T02:11:21Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > Veggies, fruits, etc. may have certain nutrients that we have not as yet discovered. These micronutrients may be too small to have as yet been detected. That’s exactly what Homeopathy proponents claim about homeopathy: “There may be certain structures present in succussed remedies that we haven’t discovered yet.” Their claim is, quite frankly, specious – like claiming that invisible unicorns might exist. And, frankly, if there ARE micronutrients in fruits & vegetables that we haven’t already discovered – well, we’ve been studying them scientifically for _over a century_ now. If any nutrients exist that have evaded detection for THIS LONG, their effect must, almost by definition, be extremely subtle, to the point of hardly mattering. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-vegetables-vitamin-pills/588810/26 "2011-07-14T02:12:53Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > Dude! Chill! Here, munch on this tasty carrot… I wrapped some bacon around it. 😃 Why would you do such a horrible thing to a perfectly innocent piece of bacon?!?! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-vegetables-vitamin-pills/588810/27 "2011-07-14T03:03:34Z")
OK, you can get fiber from supplements- and you need a lot more than you are getting. I suggest both the “orange powder” form and some sort of fiber complex pill, one that has several kinds of fiber. Honestly- you are not getting enough fiber (few Americans are) Now sure, there are micronutrients, some have been IDed and some have not been found to be NEEDED for human health. Of course, they still could help in the long run, like resveratrol or bioflavinoids. The good news is that you can get those in pill form also. You can even get concentrated veggies in pill form. By buying them, you are likely wasting some money, of course. OTOH, in the long run it could be a great investment. Swanson has a very complete catalog and reasonable prices. **tracer** Do you also hate potatoes and corn? Like mashed taters, french fries, corn on the cob, etc? Note by eating e.g. Yukon Gold Potatoes (which are very tasty) you can get many of the benefits of eating “veggies” while still eating mashed taters. How about beans, like chili or baked? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-vegetables-vitamin-pills/588810/28 "2011-07-14T05:24:19Z")
> [@tracer](#): > > But if a person tells you “I don’t eat vegetables,” (s)he just hasn’t discovered the _right_ vegetables yet. Right? (Much in the same way, years ago, someome might say that a gay man was just a man who hadn’t found the right woman yet.) Or worse, the vegetable-hater is just an immature brat who isn’t doing what he’s supposed to. Methinks that overstates matters by a notch. Overcooked vegetables, properly cooked vegetables, undercooked vegetables and raw vegetables taste rather different. Personally I dislike numbers 1 and 2 and believed that my aversion to vegetables was general for a while. But I later learned that I liked 3 and 4. YMMV of course, but it seems reasonable to me to question whether somebody dislikes all vegetables cooked in all manner of recipe pending greater substantiation of that claim. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-vegetables-vitamin-pills/588810/29 "2011-07-14T13:29:58Z")
> [@tracer](#): > > That’s exactly what Homeopathy proponents claim about homeopathy: “There may be certain structures present in succussed remedies that we haven’t discovered yet.” Their claim is, quite frankly, specious – like claiming that invisible unicorns might exist. > > And, frankly, if there ARE micronutrients in fruits & vegetables that we haven’t already discovered – well, we’ve been studying them scientifically for _over a century_ now. If any nutrients exist that have evaded detection for THIS LONG, their effect must, almost by definition, be extremely subtle, to the point of hardly mattering. **Lazybratsche** presented a very nice explanation about why this claim is more credible for vegetables than for homeopathy: we know there is a strong correlation between a diet rich in fruits and vegetables and good health. We have several theories about why–vitamins, less eating unhealthy stuff, fiber–but it’s hard to proved exactly what does what. If someone showed in many, many studies that there was a strong correlation between homeopathic remedies and lifelong health, it would be a much stronger argument for “something is going on here”. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-vegetables-vitamin-pills/588810/30 "2011-07-14T14:58:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > … > **tracer** Do you also hate potatoes and corn? Like mashed taters, french fries, corn on the cob, etc? Note by eating e.g. Yukon Gold Potatoes (which are very tasty) you can get many of the benefits of eating “veggies” while still eating mashed taters. How about beans, like chili or baked? You might note that chapter 3 of **tracer** ’s polemic outlines what he considers a “vegetable”. Corn is considered as a special case, potatoes are not. I suspect that he might consider potatoes as something which can undergo a transformation to become “not a vegetable”, like corn and tomatoes. Kids sometimes don’t realize that french fries ARE potatoes. And I’ll disagree with him about mushrooms. Oh, and what do you think of olives? ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-vegetables-vitamin-pills/588810/31 "2011-07-14T16:19:34Z")
> [@lazybratsche](#): > > So to prove causation, you have to do some sort of controlled study. The ideal experiment to answer your question would feed different diets to different groups of people and measure health outcomes over time. But that’s too big of an experiment to ever be practical – you’d have to recruit thousands of people, give them several carefully defined diets (lots of fruits+veg vs. vitamin supplements vs. control diet), monitor over the course of decades, and somehow manage to enforce compliance among the study participants. I will volunteer for the group that eats veggies … > [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > Dude! Chill! Here, munch on this tasty carrot… I wrapped some bacon around it. 😃 meh now if it was asparagus or water chestnut with bacon, that is different =) I like my carrots plain and raw, to be honest. Maybe with a bit of hummus to dip in. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-vegetables-vitamin-pills/588810/32 "2011-07-14T16:55:52Z")
Olives are fruit. It’s obvious: look at them growing on a tree as drupes, just like cherries and plums. Historically, though, going back to the Bronze Age, the main importance of olives in their native habitat, the Mediterranean, is the production of oil. To provide the essential fat that is otherwise hard to derive from plant food. To serve pickled or cured olive fruits as a snack food is just a sideline to the oil, the real reason for growing olive trees. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-vegetables-vitamin-pills/588810/33 "2011-07-14T18:14:46Z")
> [@yabob](#): > > You might note that chapter 3 of **tracer** ’s polemic outlines what he considers a “vegetable”. Corn is considered as a special case, potatoes are not. I suspect that he might consider potatoes as something which can undergo a transformation to become “not a vegetable”, like corn and tomatoes. Kids sometimes don’t realize that french fries ARE potatoes. And I’ll disagree with him about mushrooms. Potatoes aren’t a special case because they appear in one, and only one, [Food Group](http://www.choosemyplate.gov/foodgroups/vegetables.html). Corn appears as “corn” in one food group and “popcorn” in another. Technically, the fact that I eat mashed potatoes and (occasionally) French fries means that I’m eating “vegetables,” since potatoes are classified in the USDA’s vegetable food group (under the “starchy vegetables” subcategory). But no vegephile would claim I was “getting enough veggies” by eating mashed potatoes. Perhaps the sharp distinction between “vegetables” and “grains” – created by the USDA’s insistence on categorizing a food item in one and only one food group – should actually have some gradations in between. > [@](#): > > Oh, and what do you think of olives? Ew. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-vegetables-vitamin-pills/588810/34 "2011-07-14T18:18:23Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Olives are fruit. It’s obvious: look at them growing on a tree as drupes, just like cherries and plums. Yes, yes – and, taxonomically, tomatoes are fruits too. But tomatoes appear in the USDA’s Vegetable Food Group. And olives, it seems, appear in the USDA’s [Oils Food Group](http://www.choosemyplate.gov/foodgroups/oils.html). This would mean that, as far as the USDA is concerned, olives are more closely related to sperm whales than to oranges. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-vegetables-vitamin-pills/588810/35 "2011-07-14T19:59:34Z")
In addition to the possibility of unknown micronutrients in veggies, one must consider a synergistic effect of all the nutrients in a veggie, fruit, etc., as opposed to taking them singly in pills. Many studies on just taking a vitamin pill, vitamin E particularly, have been disappointing, but those taking food with vitamin E (and other nutrients) have been encouraging. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-vegetables-vitamin-pills/588810/36 "2011-07-14T20:14:32Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > Many studies on just taking a vitamin pill, vitamin E particularly, have been disappointing, but those taking food with vitamin E (and other nutrients) have been encouraging. You sure those studies aren’t comparing the difference between the dl-alpha tocopherol and the d-alpha tocopherol forms of Vitamin E? Traditionally, most vitamin E supplement pills have contained one form, while most vegetable sources of vitamin E contain the other. (Although _both_ forms are starting to become available in pill form now.) ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-vegetables-vitamin-pills/588810/37 "2011-07-14T20:41:47Z")
> [@tracer](#): > > You sure those studies aren’t comparing the difference between the dl-alpha tocopherol and the d-alpha tocopherol forms of Vitamin E? > > Traditionally, most vitamin E supplement pills have contained one form, while most vegetable sources of vitamin E contain the other. (Although _both_ forms are starting to become available in pill form now.) I don’t think that they were comparing different forms of the same vitamin. In addition, studies on beta-carotene were disappointing when taken in supplement form. [http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=125](http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=125) > [@](#): > > Despite the large body of population-based research that links high consumption of foods containing beta-carotene and other carotenoids with a reduced risk of several chronic diseases, the Institute of Medicine concluded that this evidence was not strong enough to support a required carotenoid intake level because it is not yet known if the health benefits associated with carotenoid-containing foods are due to the carotenoids or to some other substance in the food. > **[NGAWITOTO: Situs Toto Terpercaya Penyedia Data Macau & Prediksi Togel Akurat](https://gleepa.com/)** > > NGAWITOTO adalah situs toto online terpercaya yang menyediakan data macau, hasil togel resmi, dan prediksi angka jitu paling akurat di Indonesia untuk semua pasaran populer. > [@](#): > > Don’t assume that beta carotene or other antioxidants in supplement form are beneficial, or even harmless. Don’t take beta carotene pills, particularly if you’ve ever been a smoker. Beta carotene is plentiful in vegetables and fruits, and is safe and beneficial when consumed from such foods. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-vegetables-vitamin-pills/588810/38 "2011-07-14T20:49:48Z")
> [@tracer](#): > > Why would you do such a horrible thing to a perfectly innocent piece of bacon?!?! :eek: Because _I_ like it that way! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-vegetables-vitamin-pills/588810/39 "2011-07-14T21:04:25Z")
In addition, I just received an email from Dr. Mirkin, who says: > [@](#): > > Calcium in pills, unlike calcium in foods, causes a rise > in blood calcium levels that can damage arteries by: > \*increasing clot formation, a major cause of heart attacks and > strokes (J Bone Miner Res. 1997;12:1959-70), ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-vegetables-vitamin-pills/588810/40 "2011-07-14T22:30:09Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > In addition, studies on beta-carotene were disappointing when taken in supplement form. [Now Foods Natural Beta Carotene 25000 IU Softgels](http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=125) That’s not _quite_ what that article says. It only mentions “the inconsistent results from research studies aimed at evaluating the health benefits of beta-carotene supplements.” The real disappointment here is that we can’t conclude anything one way or the other. > [@](#): > > [http://www.wellnessletter.com//html/ds/dsBetaCarotene.php](http://www.wellnessletter.com//html/ds/dsBetaCarotene.php) Unfortunately, the study mentioned in that article only discovered that beta carotene and vitamin A supplements appear to put people _at high risk_ of lung cancer (smokers and asbestos workers) at even greater risk. And we don’t know how strong the correlation is, because the study was halted early. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-vegetables-vitamin-pills/588810.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-vegetables-vitamin-pills/588810.md?page=3)