# What evidence is there that Wayne Williams didn't commit the Atlanta child murders **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2012, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-wayne-williams-didnt-commit-the-atlanta-child-murders/633620 "2012-09-04T06:01:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-wayne-williams-didnt-commit-the-atlanta-child-murders/633620/1 "2012-09-04T06:01:57Z")
I have heard there is controversy about his guilt. To my understanding he became a suspect after police pulled him over after they suspected him of dumping a body off a bridge (a body was found downstream from where they suspected Williams of dumping a body a few days later). Several bodies that were found had fibers that matched the carpet fibers in his parents home, where he was living. DNA testing in the last few years found hairs on the bodies of some victims that matches the hairs of his pet dog. What is the argument against his guilt? Of the 20+ murders, I think he was only tied to a few via forensic evidence. So maybe there were multiple killers, I don’t know. At the very least it appears he killed some of the people he is accused of killing. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-wayne-williams-didnt-commit-the-atlanta-child-murders/633620/2 "2012-09-04T06:27:52Z")
Well, there probably _were_ multiple killers - they just weren’t acting in concert. It’s my understanding that a number of the murders were just the expected result of children in a crime-infested, unemployment-ridden, drug-using, police-indifferent inner city enclave. Kids were being killed all the time - Williams just added enough to the tally that it couldn’t be as easily ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-wayne-williams-didnt-commit-the-atlanta-child-murders/633620/3 "2012-09-04T06:45:23Z")
There’s no evidence, really. There are some records of KKK leaders praising the killings, but the main thrust of the argument is a blend of “rush to judgment,” “he was framed,” “white racist cop conspiracy,” and “I just know that sweet boy didn’t do it.” When DeKalb county police chief Louis Graham reopened four of the cases, nothing came up. When the dog hairs were tested, they were only able to test mitochondrial DNA, which matched his dog, but which is not as individual as nuclear DNA. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-wayne-williams-didnt-commit-the-atlanta-child-murders/633620/4 "2012-09-04T10:35:08Z")
When Williams was arrested, the murders stopped. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-wayne-williams-didnt-commit-the-atlanta-child-murders/633620/5 "2012-09-04T18:56:28Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > When Williams was arrested, the murders stopped. So did the son of sam killings and those were probably done by multiple killers. ---
**Author:** ![Yorikke](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yorikke/32/4335_2.png) [@Yorikke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yorikke)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-wayne-williams-didnt-commit-the-atlanta-child-murders/633620/6 "2012-09-04T20:03:58Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > So did the son of sam killings and those were probably done by multiple killers. Can you expand on this? Joe ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-wayne-williams-didnt-commit-the-atlanta-child-murders/633620/7 "2012-09-04T20:08:24Z")
What little I recall from a couple of analyses, Wayne Williams is unlikely to have commited many of the murders. There were plenty of cases closed just by wrapping them up in the same package. What I don’t recall is how well they had him tied to at least one murder. I recall they had him dead to rights on the last one though. Also, children didn’t stop disappearing any dying after he was caught, anybody have the statistics on that? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-wayne-williams-didnt-commit-the-atlanta-child-murders/633620/8 "2012-09-04T22:34:18Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > What is the argument against his guilt? Of the 20+ murders, I think he was only tied to a few via forensic evidence. So maybe there were multiple killers, I don’t know. At the very least it appears he killed some of the people he is accused of killing. As I recall, this was the main argument. People agreed Williams was guilty of some murders. They just didn’t think he was single-handedly responsible for all the murder cases that were closed when he was arrested. These people feel the police should have continued their investigations to find the other murderers. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-wayne-williams-didnt-commit-the-atlanta-child-murders/633620/9 "2012-09-04T23:01:17Z")
> [@hrhomer](#): > > Can you expand on this? > > Joe It sounds far fetched, but there is a theory that the son of sam murders were committed by a few members of an underground satanist cult who wanted to cause as much confusion and disarray as possible in new york, of which Berkowitz was a member. Berkowitz did some of the murders, other members supposedly did others. There were several different sketches of shooters who didn’t look the same, several of which matched the identities of people named by Berkowitz as members of the shooter crew. During one shooting that was blamed on Berkowitz, Berkowitz was seen blocks away, I believe he said he was acting as a lookout rather than a shooter for that one. The book [Ultimate Evil](http://www.amazon.com/The-Ultimate-Evil-Terry-Maury/dp/0760761191) expands on the theory and has a lot of interviews with Berkowitz as well as independent research on the subject. I read this stuff a while back, I’m short on details aside from that. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-wayne-williams-didnt-commit-the-atlanta-child-murders/633620/10 "2012-09-05T04:03:04Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > It sounds far fetched, but there is a theory that the son of sam murders were committed by a few members of an underground satanist cult who wanted to cause as much confusion and disarray as possible in new york, of which Berkowitz was a member. Berkowitz did some of the murders, other members supposedly did others. If you took all the victims known to have been killed by “underground satanist cults” in the last century, they would fit comfortably (alive) in whatever room you are sitting in right now. “Underground satanist cult” is not a theory. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-wayne-williams-didnt-commit-the-atlanta-child-murders/633620/11 "2012-09-05T11:24:14Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > If you took all the victims known to have been killed by “underground satanist cults” in the last century, they would fit comfortably (alive) in whatever room you are sitting in right now. “Underground satanist cult” is not a theory. Your comment is based on what exactly? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-wayne-williams-didnt-commit-the-atlanta-child-murders/633620/12 "2012-09-05T12:15:32Z")
It is probably the case that there were several murders in this case. It is like the Gacey murders in Chicago-nobody notices when kids disappear from poor urban neighborhoods…the police know that many of these kids are runaways, and frequently the parents don’t care. Or take the “Boston Strangler” murders of the early 1960’s-it is believed now that there were likely 3 criminals responsible…and the chief suspect (at the time) Albert DiSalvo, is now believed to be innocent. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-wayne-williams-didnt-commit-the-atlanta-child-murders/633620/13 "2012-09-05T12:52:01Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Your comment is based on what exactly? The lack of underground satanist cults. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-wayne-williams-didnt-commit-the-atlanta-child-murders/633620/14 "2012-09-06T00:33:37Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > The lack of underground satanist cults. _Takes TriPolar off our list for now_ Ladies and gents, this one is better alive than dead 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-wayne-williams-didnt-commit-the-atlanta-child-murders/633620/15 "2012-09-06T00:50:26Z")
I suspect the Learned Elders of Zion may be responsible for as many murders as “murderous underground Satanic cults”. With all due respect to Wes, they’re an urban legend. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-wayne-williams-didnt-commit-the-atlanta-child-murders/633620/16 "2012-09-06T00:59:16Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I suspect the Learned Elders of Zion may be responsible for as many murders as “murderous underground Satanic cults”. > > With all due respect to Wes, they’re an urban legend. Based on what, again? [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5351509/ns/dateline\_nbc-newsmakers/t/did-son-sam-really-act-alone/#.UEf1JtZlQ2A](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5351509/ns/dateline_nbc-newsmakers/t/did-son-sam-really-act-alone/#.UEf1JtZlQ2A) The Queens DA didn’t think Berkowitz acted alone. > **[The Devil in Serial Killer David 'Son of Sam' Berkowitz -- New York Magazine...](https://nymag.com/news/crimelaw/20327/index4.html)** > > The way the man once called Son of Sam sees it, Satan and Jesus have long been fighting for his soul. Thirty years ago, when he killed six and terrorized the city, the Devil was winning. But now Berkowitz says that Jesus has the upper hand. And \[...\] ---
**Author:** ![Accidental\_Martyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ce7236/32.png) [@Accidental\_Martyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Accidental_Martyr)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-wayne-williams-didnt-commit-the-atlanta-child-murders/633620/17 "2012-09-06T04:02:34Z")
So, the only two accomplices Berkowitz named are both dead? How convenient. Even if he didn’t act alone that doesn’t mean he was part of a muderous Satanic cult. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-wayne-williams-didnt-commit-the-atlanta-child-murders/633620/18 "2012-09-06T12:12:17Z")
Berkowitz also confessed to an FBI profiler that his story about being told to kill by his neighbor’s dog was hooey, and that he was actually motivated by the sexual rush he got from shooting people. His reputation for veracity is not very high, so it’s tough to buy into the satanist cult business. Besides, what self-respecting satanists would get mixed up with a loser like Berkowitz? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-wayne-williams-didnt-commit-the-atlanta-child-murders/633620/19 "2012-09-06T20:25:54Z")
An excellent summary of the Williams trial is presented in John Douglas’s book Mindhunter. Basically, Douglas (an FBI profiler) told the prosecuting attorney to wear Williams down with questioning, then lean in, touch him, and ask him if he panicked when he killed the kids." The attorney did just that, and Williams replied very softly “no.” Then he went ballistic, screaming about how the “FBI goons were trying to make me look guilty, and I won’t stand for it.” The defense team was going crazy trying to get him to shut up, and it took 10 minutes to restore order in the court, while the jury just sat their with their months open, having seen the other side of Williams. The jury later said it was the turning point in the trail. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-wayne-williams-didnt-commit-the-atlanta-child-murders/633620/20 "2012-09-06T21:07:05Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > An excellent summary of the Williams trial is presented in John Douglas’s book Mindhunter. Basically, Douglas (an FBI profiler) told the prosecuting attorney to wear Williams down with questioning, then lean in, touch him, and ask him if he panicked when he killed the kids." > > The attorney did just that, and Williams replied very softly “no.” Then he went ballistic, screaming about how the “FBI goons were trying to make me look guilty, and I won’t stand for it.” The defense team was going crazy trying to get him to shut up, and it took 10 minutes to restore order in the court, while the jury just sat their with their months open, having seen the other side of Williams. > > The jury later said it was the turning point in the trail. Just like _Law & Order!_ 😃 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evidence-is-there-that-wayne-williams-didnt-commit-the-atlanta-child-murders/633620.md?page=2)