# What "Evil" books should I read? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 29, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evil-books-should-i-read/501369 "2009-06-29T18:09:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evil-books-should-i-read/501369/41 "2009-06-30T15:41:48Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > _The Communist Manifesto_ does not belong on this list. It advicates nothing hateful or evil, and it certainly is not comparable to the racist titles listed in this thread. I would defend Marx as essentially correct in most of his assumptions, and as a Humanitarian in general. He was naive in many ways, but he wasn’t evil. Quite. You might as well put The Wealth of Nations on the list. and a whole lot of political systems of oppression demanded a violent overthrow because there was no other way. Same for several around today. ---
**Author:** ![in\_hiding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c5a1d2/32.png) [@in\_hiding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/in_hiding)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evil-books-should-i-read/501369/42 "2009-06-30T15:45:16Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > If you don’t fall asleep first, “Mein Kampf” is likely to make you wonder, “Who could possibly have thought this pompous dweeb was the savior of Germany???” It’s utterly unreadable. We tried in school (history, that was very cool - finally some “real” history), but we didn’t get too far. It’s just too ridiculous. Probably the reason why nobody realized what a crazy bastard hitler was. All the sick stuff he did is right there in that book. “But we didn’t know” my Ass. Actually, that would be a reason to read it. If it wasn’t so **bad**. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evil-books-should-i-read/501369/43 "2009-06-30T15:47:45Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’d say Marx was more often wrong than right in his assumptions. His biggest error was assuming the conditions he saw in his immediate view were universal. > > And his naivete was so enormous that it was virtually evil. He advocated turning over all power to a small group of ideologues with no checks over them. Marx simply assumed that this would be okay because these men would only use their unchecked power righteously. That’s not just naive; that’s foolish. T You haven’t actually read any Marx have you? Or if you have, you have not understood it. And you have to remember he was writing in a pre-democratic world in the brutal throes of industrialisation and the anciene regimes savagely hanging on to power and privilege. ---
**Author:** ![Humble\_Servant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/47e85d/32.png) [@Humble\_Servant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humble_Servant)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evil-books-should-i-read/501369/44 "2009-06-30T19:40:17Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > _Quotations from Chairman Mao Zedong_ (aka _The Little Red Book_) My recollection is that this was, let’s say, _inscrutable_, to be generous. There’s always The Prince, handbook of the Straussians. Evil or not? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evil-books-should-i-read/501369/45 "2009-06-30T20:41:55Z")
> [@Humble\_Servant](#): > > There’s always The Prince, handbook of the Straussians. Evil or not? That is an interminable debate. Some say Machiavelli was simply being realistic, to an unprecedented and therefore shocking degree, in describing how princes in real life **do** maintain their power successfully, and that his own real, republican political views are better found in the [_Discourses._](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discourses_on_Livy) Others say _The Prince_ was published as a book-length resume, as it were, in an utterly cynical (and unsuccessful) effort to entice some prince to hire Machiavelli (who was in exile from Florentine public life when he wrote it) as a counselor. Both could be true. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evil-books-should-i-read/501369/46 "2009-06-30T20:45:24Z")
S.M. Stirling’s [Domination of the Draka](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domination_of_the_Draka) series has plenty of distilled evil in it (though Stirling vehemently insists it is a dystopia; readers’ cognitive dissonance that point seems to arise from his treatment of many of the Draka as sympathetic or at least POV characters). ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2009, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evil-books-should-i-read/501369/47 "2009-07-01T07:18:14Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > And you have to remember he was writing in a pre-democratic world in the brutal throes of industrialisation and the anciene regimes savagely hanging on to power and privilege. Yet by the time of his death in 1883, the United Kingdom had drastically extended male suffrage and had begun to pass laws protecting trade unions and guaranteeing worker’s rights. France was a republic with universal male suffrage. In Germany, socialists had been elected to the Reichstag, and Bismarck, in an attempt to stop popular discontent had just passed a law making health insurance available for all workers. In America, slavery had been abolished, there was universal male suffrage (in theory, although not always in practice for blacks), and American workers were close to forming the AFL, the first successful federation of labor unions. Yet, through all this, Marx was convinced that peaceful reform was impossible and that only violent revolution could bring about change. ---
**Author:** ![GoodOmens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@GoodOmens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GoodOmens)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2009, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evil-books-should-i-read/501369/48 "2009-07-01T11:43:45Z")
Perhaps not “evil” but certainly aberrant from the mainstream…anything by David Icke. His stuff is basically a pan-conspiracy theory, covering all the usual suspects (Freemasons, NWO, Bildberberg Group, etc.) and lots of not-so-veiled reference to the Jews, but combined with 4th dimensional reptilians called the Annuaki. Check out “The David Icke Guide to the Global Conspiracy.” ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2009, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evil-books-should-i-read/501369/49 "2009-07-01T12:46:53Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Yet by the time of his death in 1883, the United Kingdom had drastically extended male suffrage and had begun to pass laws protecting trade unions and guaranteeing worker’s rights. France was a republic with universal male suffrage. In Germany, socialists had been elected to the Reichstag, and Bismarck, in an attempt to stop popular discontent had just passed a law making health insurance available for all workers. In America, slavery had been abolished, there was universal male suffrage (in theory, although not always in practice for blacks), and American workers were close to forming the AFL, the first successful federation of labor unions. > > Yet, through all this, Marx was convinced that peaceful reform was impossible and that only violent revolution could bring about change. I’m spotting the word ‘male’ figuring a lot in your reply. and as you imply - white. And yes - Marx was right. The absolute european monarchies only gave up the ghost after being laid low in WW1 and frightened to death by the Bolshevick Revolution. The 1848 revolutionary uprisings were needed to scare the shit out of the ruling elite to get even some semblance of suffrage. As did the French Revolution and Napoleon. Rulers never ceded privilege voluntarily. As you recognise with your Bismark comment. They have to be forced into concessions. And in some cases hung from lamp-posts or introduced to the sharp edge of an axe. We have our freedoms because brave people fought for them. In England’s case the Civil War was important and was why we could have a relatively peaceful transition to democracy after the power of the monarchy was broken. And in the USA unionisation was fought for - against the state supported violence of the employers. And most other places probably. Nobody ever got freedom by asking nicely. As someone once said - The Tree of Liberty has to be periodically renewed with the blood of patriots. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2009, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evil-books-should-i-read/501369/50 "2009-07-01T13:49:32Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > As someone once said - The Tree of Liberty has to be periodically renewed with the blood of patriots. “. . . and tyrants.” ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2009, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evil-books-should-i-read/501369/51 "2009-07-01T13:53:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > “. . . and tyrants.” Really? Excellent. ---
**Author:** ![Humble\_Servant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/47e85d/32.png) [@Humble\_Servant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humble_Servant)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2009, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evil-books-should-i-read/501369/52 "2009-07-01T15:30:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Some say Machiavelli was simply being realistic, to an unprecedented and therefore shocking degree, in describing how princes in real life **do** maintain their power successfully, and that his own real, republican political views are better found in the [_Discourses._](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discourses_on_Livy) Variation on this–as in the Discourses, Machiavelli is republican and The Prince is his deadpan over-the-top critique of tyranny, baldly revealing tyranny for what it really is. He was shocked, _shocked_, to discover that people embraced it for being “realistic” and didn’t care that the Prince is revealed as the amoral inhuman equivalent of the state itself whose bottom line is survival. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2009, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evil-books-should-i-read/501369/53 "2009-07-01T15:34:51Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Yet by the time of his death in 1883, the United Kingdom had drastically extended male suffrage and had begun to pass laws protecting trade unions and guaranteeing worker’s rights. France was a republic with universal male suffrage. In Germany, socialists had been elected to the Reichstag, and Bismarck, in an attempt to stop popular discontent had just passed a law making health insurance available for all workers. In America, slavery had been abolished, there was universal male suffrage (in theory, although not always in practice for blacks), and American workers were close to forming the AFL, the first successful federation of labor unions. > > Yet, through all this, Marx was convinced that peaceful reform was impossible and that only violent revolution could bring about change. How did the United States get started? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evil-books-should-i-read/501369/54 "2009-07-01T15:41:00Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > How did the United States get started? As I understand it from the Captain Amazing Big Book of History the British, once they became aware of slight undercurrents of discontent, were so shocked and embarrassed at their own gaucheness, they just walked away. Didn’t wait for ships or anything. And Trade Unions were set up on the recommendation of Pinkerton’s. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2009, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evil-books-should-i-read/501369/55 "2009-07-01T16:04:08Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > As I understand it from the Captain Amazing Big Book of History the British, once they became aware of slight undercurrents of discontent, were so shocked and embarrassed at their own gaucheness, they just walked away. Well, it **is** true that the Brits could easily have kept the war going after Yorktown, but finally gave up because they lost political will to fight it – and that was partly because a great many Brits, including some MPs, were openly sympathetic to the American cause and always had been. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evil-books-should-i-read/501369/56 "2009-07-01T17:02:35Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > How did the United States get started? There’s a difference between saying that revolution is **sometimes** necessary and saying that it is **always** necessary. The history of society is not solely that of struggle between classes. It is one in which conflict, cooperation, and co-option all have a role, and where people are motivated not only by class, but also by other, intangible factors; race, religion, nationality, family ties, and all sorts of idiosyncratic reasons. Change sometimes happens slowly, sometimes quickly, sometimes societies stagnate, and sometimes they explode in an orgy of innovation. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evil-books-should-i-read/501369/57 "2009-07-01T17:10:33Z")
Can you cite an example where a ruling class ever voluntarily gave up power? I also disagree that political struggles are not about class. Religion, nationalism and “family values” are just tools of class manipulation and resistance. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evil-books-should-i-read/501369/58 "2009-07-01T18:18:58Z")
> [@GoodOmens](#): > > Perhaps not “evil” but certainly aberrant from the mainstream…anything by David Icke. His stuff is basically a pan-conspiracy theory, covering all the usual suspects (Freemasons, NWO, Bildberberg Group, etc.) and lots of not-so-veiled reference to the Jews, but combined with 4th dimensional reptilians called the Annuaki. Check out “The David Icke Guide to the Global Conspiracy.” Is he the “Serpent Seed” guy? The lizards were the snake in the garden of Eden who boinked Eve who gave birth to half-lizard Jews? Or was that someone else? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@Johnny\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Q)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evil-books-should-i-read/501369/59 "2009-07-01T18:26:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, it **is** true that the Brits could easily have kept the war going after Yorktown, but finally gave up because they lost political will to fight it – and that was partly because a great many Brits, including some MPs, were openly sympathetic to the American cause and always had been. I’m sure the French naval blockade helped too. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evil-books-should-i-read/501369/60 "2009-07-01T18:30:16Z")
_"The Necronomicon_ – the last book you’ll ever want to read!" – from the Miskatonic Univ. Press blurb 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evil-books-should-i-read/501369.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-evil-books-should-i-read/501369.md?page=4)