# What exactly are holocaust-deniers trying to accomplish? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 29, 2009, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-holocaust-deniers-trying-to-accomplish/494719 "2009-04-29T10:24:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-holocaust-deniers-trying-to-accomplish/494719/21 "2009-04-29T14:51:23Z")
“The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he does not exist.” I think it is something along those lines. If people forget what murdering thugs these guys were they are not particularly on guard against them. This opens the door for the Nazis to gain broader acceptance instead of being marginalized thus granting them more power as a group. For the likes of Iran I think they want to undermine support for Israel. There is a sense that Israel is allowed to continue, at least in part, as a sort of way for Europe/US to assuage some guilt over the Holocaust. Hitler was not the first to persecute Jews either so there was a sense that they need a place to call their own. Iran wants to say that is all bullshit, didn’t happen therefore at list one pillar of support for Israel is undermined. Also plays well at home in Iran so also props up the regime there. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-holocaust-deniers-trying-to-accomplish/494719/22 "2009-04-29T15:03:25Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > My WAG: Although political Zionism existed long before WW2, many feel that the world’s sympathy for Holocaust survivors (and/or guilt/shame over the Holocaust itself) was a decisive factor in establishing the State of Israel in 1948. But if the Holocaust didn’t happen, then Israel no longer has a right to exist. > > It seems to me that this sort of logic would appeal to Ahmadinejad et al, much more strongly than any “pride in the Nazis” suggested by the OP. I think the goal here isn’t to deny that jews were rounded up and murdered, but that their deaths weren’t necessarily anything significant or unique within the context of WWII, so it undercuts the foundation of Israel to some extent. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-holocaust-deniers-trying-to-accomplish/494719/23 "2009-04-29T15:14:47Z")
> [@Furious\_Marmot](#): > > Do they explain why ‘non-whites’ need to go back to some ancestral homeland, while ‘whites’ are allowed to stay in the Americas? My guess is [Manifest Destiny](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_Destiny). ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-holocaust-deniers-trying-to-accomplish/494719/24 "2009-04-29T15:35:09Z")
I think this is probably better suited for GD than GQ. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-holocaust-deniers-trying-to-accomplish/494719/25 "2009-04-29T15:40:01Z")
Holocaust deniers are trying to paint a picture of an international Jewish conspiracy. Anything bad that happens, the Jews are to blame. Who caused WW1? The Jews, who wanted to profit from arms dealing. Why did Germany lose WW1? Because the Jews sold them out. Why did Germany suffer such economic hardships after WW1? Because of Jewish bankers stealing all their money. And so on. The holocaust, according to them, is just one more lie of the evil conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-holocaust-deniers-trying-to-accomplish/494719/26 "2009-04-29T15:47:03Z")
Just to throw extra sand into the deniers’ argument: Israel is a reality now, regardless of what is found out about history. Its existence is no longer predicated on the Holocaust or any other historical pogrom. It exists because it has existed for the past six decades and it has a multigenerational native population. That’s all the excuse any nation has, or needs. So, no. Holocaust denial cannot be understood on a rational basis. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-holocaust-deniers-trying-to-accomplish/494719/27 "2009-04-29T16:00:49Z")
I always figured it was a Jew-Judo move. That is, they hate Jews … the holocaust was terrible … so lets blame the Jews for making everybody thing there actually was a holocaust. That way, they can get back to accusing them of running everything with a nice little tie-in. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-holocaust-deniers-trying-to-accomplish/494719/28 "2009-04-29T16:08:52Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Just to throw extra sand into the deniers’ argument: > > Israel is a reality now, regardless of what is found out about history. Its existence is no longer predicated on the Holocaust or any other historical pogrom. It exists because it has existed for the past six decades and it has a multigenerational native population. That’s all the excuse any nation has, or needs. > > So, no. Holocaust denial cannot be understood on a rational basis. True but Israel’s continued existence is heavily reliant on outside support. Knock a pillar for that support away and (maybe) the countries in the area that want to push them all into the sea might have a chance of succeeding. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-holocaust-deniers-trying-to-accomplish/494719/29 "2009-04-29T16:29:41Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > In the most recent thread on this subject, we had a long-time poster arguing that not all Holocaust deniers are anti-Semitic. But of course they are and have shown it repeatedly. There are several levels of “deniers” that might not be anti-semitic. First we have the reasonable point is that the numbers given are estimates and that a decent % of the non-Concentration camp German citizenry also died during the war. Certainly one can argue that the Holocaust might have caused the death of “only” 4-5 million Jews without being anti-semitic. Next, the “deny” might be of the death camps, as opposed to the concentration camps. These people agree that millions died in the concentration camps, but deny there was any organized mass plan and attempt to murder all the Jews. Some of these people seem not to be anti-semitic, but just people who can’t wrap their head around that level of evil. And of cource, I have seen the label of “denier” stretched to include those who insist millions of non-Jews died in the Holocaust too. In that last case, I would say I am a denier. Oh and the “long time poster” who started the thread was a banned posted with 35 posts, who had been on the board for 2 days ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-holocaust-deniers-trying-to-accomplish/494719/30 "2009-04-29T16:37:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > In that last case, I would say I am a denier. Mind explaining your reasoning there? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-holocaust-deniers-trying-to-accomplish/494719/31 "2009-04-29T16:41:02Z")
Lets ask our crazy friends… > [@](#): > > The real purpose of holocaust revisionism is to make National Socialism an acceptable political alternative again. Harold Covington, National Socialist White Peoples Party (formerly American Nazi Party) quoting (with approval) Deborah Lipstadt. _See_ [Nizkor.org on this for the full comment.](http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/national-socialist-white-peoples-party/nswpp-on-revisionism-01.html) ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-holocaust-deniers-trying-to-accomplish/494719/32 "2009-04-29T16:47:51Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Mind explaining your reasoning there? I think what he’s saying is that some people lump in with “Holocaust Deniers” anyone who wants to bring attention to the Roma, Gays, etc who were rounded up and killed as well. There are those who want to focus all discussion of the German atrocities on the Jews to the exclusion of all other victims. If those people are calling him a “Holocaust Denier” then he would agree with them. Am I close? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-holocaust-deniers-trying-to-accomplish/494719/33 "2009-04-29T16:48:25Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Mind explaining your reasoning there? "_And of cource, I have seen the label of “denier” stretched to include those who insist millions of non-Jews died in the Holocaust too. In that last case, I would say I am a denier."_ I _do_ state that millions of non-jews died in the holocaust, as do most experts. Don’t you agree that millions of Gays, politicals and Slavs also died in the Holocaust?😕 ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-holocaust-deniers-trying-to-accomplish/494719/34 "2009-04-29T16:52:00Z")
They are crazy. Crazy people never look at their own arguments and see internal inconsistency. They simply see another layer of conspiracy ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-holocaust-deniers-trying-to-accomplish/494719/35 "2009-04-29T16:57:48Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Mind explaining your reasoning there? I think he was referring to having seen people who point out that millions of other people who were not Jewish were also exterminated labeled “Holocaust deniers” makes him a denier by that criteria. Personally I’ve never seen or heard of that phenomenon but I’m Jewish and I always remember that plenty of non-Jews were killed in the camps. If that’s all it takes to be called a “Holocaust denier” then I’d fall into that (IMHO utterly silly) category as well. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-holocaust-deniers-trying-to-accomplish/494719/36 "2009-04-29T16:59:30Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Don’t you agree that millions of Gays, politicals and Slavs also died in the Holocaust?😕 I do. I’m sorry, it took a couple of extra readings for me to get what you were saying. It’s absurd that anybody would be called a Holocaust denier for pointing out that other people got murdered, too. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-holocaust-deniers-trying-to-accomplish/494719/37 "2009-04-29T18:01:37Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I do. I’m sorry, it took a couple of extra readings for me to get what you were saying. It’s absurd that anybody would be called a Holocaust denier for pointing out that other people got murdered, too. Well, it was in my youth at college and by two different Jewish guys. One claimed that only the Jews were singled out because of their race-religion-heritage, the rest were criminals or politicals. I asked about the Gypsies and Homosexuals, and he claimed that the Gypsies were criminals and it was a crime in Germany to be a Homosexual, thus, the Jewish Holocaust was unique and I might as well be a “denier” to insist that the Jewish portion of the Holocaust was not “unique”. The other guy claimed that only the Jews were exterminated, that the others were not executed and that they were also treated better.:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-holocaust-deniers-trying-to-accomplish/494719/38 "2009-04-29T18:20:46Z")
Not that numbers are all that central in this discussion, but [here:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust#Victims_and_death_toll) > [@](#): > > The number of victims depends on which definition of “the Holocaust” is used. Donald Niewyk and Francis Nicosia write in The Columbia Guide to the Holocaust that the term is commonly defined as the mass murder, and attempt to wipe out, European Jewry, which would bring the total number of victims to just under six million — around 78 percent of the 7.3 million Jews in occupied Europe at the time. > > Broader definitions include between 220,000 and 500,000 Romani, and the 200,000 disabled and mentally ill who were killed, because these groups were also targeted for eradication. A broader definition still includes political and religious dissenters, two to three million Soviet POWs, and 5,000 to 15,000 gay men, bringing the death toll to nine million. This rises to 11 million if the deaths of 1.8 to 2 million ethnic Poles are included. The broadest definition would include 6 million Soviet civilians, raising the death toll to 17 million. R.J. Rummel estimates the total democide death toll of Nazi Germany to be 21 million. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-holocaust-deniers-trying-to-accomplish/494719/39 "2009-04-29T18:49:42Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, it was in my youth at college and by two different Jewish guys. One claimed that only the Jews were singled out because of their race-religion-heritage, the rest were criminals or politicals. I asked about the Gypsies and Homosexuals, and he claimed that the Gypsies were criminals and it was a crime in Germany to be a Homosexual, thus, the Jewish Holocaust was unique and I might as well be a “denier” to insist that the Jewish portion of the Holocaust was not “unique”. > > The other guy claimed that only the Jews were exterminated, that the others were not executed and that they were also treated better.:dubious: Ok wait. So, the Nazis outlawed homosexuality and Gypsies, so when they rounded up all the gays and Roma it was only the execution of criminals. What if Hitler had made it illegal to be Jewish? Would that have made the extermination of the Jews ok? I also wanted to say I think part of the reason they deny the holocaust is because they enjoy being persecuted, to an extent. The fact that it makes them so hated _proves_ that the conspiracy is trying to silence them (at least in their own minds). ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-holocaust-deniers-trying-to-accomplish/494719/40 "2009-04-29T18:54:34Z")
Of course the holocaust also included other groups - gypsies, communists, homosexuals, anyone who was against the Nazis, etc - but I don’t think any of those groups were as specifically hated by the Nazis. I mean, they began inundating children in schools with anti-Semitic propaganda from a very early age. They made a picture book called “The Poisonous Mushroom” which is all about Jews and how evil they are - they did no such thing with any other group. They held conferences to discuss the “Final Solution” _with regard to the Jews specifically_ - they wanted to annihilate all Jewry from Europe - Hitler’s book, Mein Kampf (which I have skimmed through) makes it clear that the Nazi party’s hatred was primarily directed towards Jews. Other groups did die in the holocaust but I don’t think they were the _target_ of the holocaust the way the Jews were. I think the Nazis just got so swept away with the killing frenzy that they started just killing anyone they didn’t like - but I think it was originally directed towards Jews. As for the white-power neo-Nazi types who say that America should be an Aryan nation and that the Jews should “go back to Israel” - they’re always against Israel too. They don’t think Israel should exist, generally, and they think Israel is controlling America, etc. So really when they say the Jews should “go back to their homeland” but they don’t think that the Jewish homeland should exist, that just shows how weak their argument is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-holocaust-deniers-trying-to-accomplish/494719.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-holocaust-deniers-trying-to-accomplish/494719.md?page=3)