# What exactly are Reeducation Camps? Are they concentration camps or just summer camps? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 26, 2020, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-reeducation-camps-are-they-concentration-camps-or-just-summer-camps/923957 "2020-10-26T17:56:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2020, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-reeducation-camps-are-they-concentration-camps-or-just-summer-camps/923957/41 "2020-10-28T15:53:59Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > So, how do you distinguish between people making do and surviving within a brutal system and using “doctrines” to justify what they want to do anyway, on the one hand, and actually believing in that system on the other hand? If the only doctrine is, “Whatever the CCP said last is True”, I’m not sure that actually amounts to a doctrine, and I personally doubt anyone actually _believes_ that. I think, all of the available evidence from history, including the recent history of China, is that people will say and do what they need to in order to survive. I agree that it’s difficult to distinguish between fear-driven expressions of support and genuine belief, but it can be possible to an extent to people who look closely enough. And as for cult-of-personalities, I think they are successful to a large extent. From what I’ve seen, it appears most people who follow these matters believe that most people in NK genuinely believe in the almost God-like powers of Kim Jung Un, however ridiculous this may seem to us. [In general, there’s a tendency among Westerners to assume that most people in other cultures and political systems share their beliefs and values and any indication otherwise just means that those others are being suppressed by Evil Leaders, whose removal would allow Western values to assume their natural place. This is incorrect, and can lead to disastrous political decisions, most notably in Iraq but also Haiti and other similar situations.] ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2020, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-reeducation-camps-are-they-concentration-camps-or-just-summer-camps/923957/42 "2020-10-28T16:06:33Z")
In Cuba they would re-educate the gay out of you “la revolución no entra por el culo” (you don’t get the revolución up the ass). They’d make you work until you “stopped being gay”. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2020, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-reeducation-camps-are-they-concentration-camps-or-just-summer-camps/923957/43 "2020-10-28T16:16:28Z")
Sure, but then that’s not really “re-education”. If you start with people who _want_ to believe you, you can convince them of things that seem utterly ridiculous to an outsider. If you start with people that _don’t_ want to believe you, I’m highly skeptical that any sort of “indoctrination” or “re-education” is particularly useful beyond enforcing superficial, fear-based compliance. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > In the case of Russia, people did indeed reject communism, but that was after 70 years. Nothing lasts forever, not even brainwashing. In the case of Russia, the Soviet Communist Party spent decades engaged in an unprecedented (but tragically not unparalleled in the 20th Century) campaign of literally industrial mass indoctrination and re-education. They didn’t succeed. The “New Soviet Man” never existed, he was _always_ a myth. The same peoples that didn’t want to be part of the Russian Empire in 1917 were the same peoples that didn’t want to be part of the USSR in 1991 and are the same peoples that don’t want to be part of a “soft” Russian neo-empire in 2020. The people that _wanted_ to be part of Russia temporarily accepted the Communist Party as the rulers of Russia, until they didn’t. As long as the Soviet Communist Party could maintain a credible facade of control and competency and monopoly of force, people acquiesced. As soon as that facade started to crumble, even the ultra-indoctrinated apparatchiks in the deepest recesses of the Party-State abandoned it. Did they ever really _believe_ in it? I don’t know. Probably, some of them, on some level. But if your “indoctrination” only works as long as someone is using the gulags to enforce it, I don’t think that really counts as “indoctrination”. And again, I’ve yet to see any evidence that any of this ever worked on people who didn’t _want_ to be indoctrinated. What are the actual examples of actual re-education camps or similar programs that started with people opposed to a doctrine or regime and that coerced them into genuinely changing their minds? What actual evidence is there that any form of mass coercion has ever actually enforced more than superficial conformity out of fear? Again, _I could be wrong_. I’m genuinely asking for counter-evidence. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2020, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-reeducation-camps-are-they-concentration-camps-or-just-summer-camps/923957/44 "2020-10-28T16:44:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > However, saying that people cant be forced to give up their beliefs is nonsense. They can and they have. yes, a few people refuse, but many just acquiesce after enuf pressure is applied. Torture, altho pretty much worthless as a interrogation technique can break someone mind. Of course they arent much good for anything afterwards. I wanted to circle back around to this when I had a little more time. So, torture is worthless for interrogation, but it _can_ force people to give up their beliefs? How does _that_ work? Was the problem with the CIA’s “enhanced interrogation techniques” just that they were trying to interrogate prisoners rather than “re-educate” them? If only they had interspersed waterboarding sessions with civic lessons and Disney movies, do you think they would have forced Khalid Sheikh Mohammed to abandon his beliefs and profess his new faith in Truth, Justice, and the American Way? If that’s true, then it sure seems like torture is actually an _extremely_ effective interrogation technique. Just “re-educate” your subject into accepting _your_ doctrines, and they’ll gladly give you all of the cooperation and information you could ever want. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2020, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-reeducation-camps-are-they-concentration-camps-or-just-summer-camps/923957/45 "2020-10-28T16:55:28Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > As long as the Soviet Communist Party could maintain a credible facade of control and competency and monopoly of force, people acquiesced. As soon as that facade started to crumble, even the ultra-indoctrinated apparatchiks in the deepest recesses of the Party-State abandoned it. Did they ever really _believe_ in it? I don’t know. Probably, some of them, on some level. But if your “indoctrination” only works as long as someone is using the gulags to enforce it, I don’t think that really counts as “indoctrination”. I believe you are overstating things here. Worth noting that even after the fall of communism in Russia, the [current version of the Russian Communist Party has significant support.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_the_Russian_Federation) So it’s very unlikely that no one believed in it even when the communists were actually in power. I’m not sure what type of evidence might be cited if you’re going to claim that people believed in it because they “want[ed] to be indoctrinated”. > [@gdave](#): > > So, torture is worthless for interrogation, but it _can_ force people to give up their beliefs? How does _that_ work? > > Was the problem with the CIA’s “enhanced interrogation techniques” just that they were trying to interrogate prisoners rather than “re-educate” them? If only they had interspersed waterboarding sessions with civic lessons and Disney movies, do you think they would have forced Khalid Sheikh Mohammed to abandon his beliefs and profess his new faith in Truth, Justice, and the American Way? > > If that’s true, then it sure seems like torture is actually an _extremely_ effective interrogation technique. Just “re-educate” your subject into accepting _your_ doctrines, and they’ll gladly give you all of the cooperation and information you could ever want. Couple of points: 1. brainwashing is not the same thing as torture. 2. No one is claiming that anyone can be brainwashed into believing anything. Only that quite a lot of people can, and that being successful at brainwashing quite a lot of people can have a major societal impact. But I would think you’re least likely to be successful with die-hard opponents such as captured terrorist leaders. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2020, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-reeducation-camps-are-they-concentration-camps-or-just-summer-camps/923957/46 "2020-10-28T17:17:05Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > > [@gdave](#): > > > > As long as the Soviet Communist Party could maintain a credible facade of control and competency and monopoly of force, people acquiesced. As soon as that facade started to crumble, even the ultra-indoctrinated apparatchiks in the deepest recesses of the Party-State abandoned it. Did they ever really _believe_ in it? I don’t know. Probably, some of them, on some level. But if your “indoctrination” only works as long as someone is using the gulags to enforce it, I don’t think that really counts as “indoctrination”. > > I believe you are overstating things here. Worth noting that even after the fall of communism in Russia, the [current version of the Russian Communist Party has significant support.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_the_Russian_Federation) So it’s very unlikely that no one believed in it even when the communists were actually in power. Fair enough. Clearly, there were, and apparently still are, people that genuinely believe in Communist ideology. I still don’t think that coercive indoctrination had much to do with that. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I’m not sure what type of evidence might be cited if you’re going to claim that people believed in it because they “want[ed] to be indoctrinated”. Show me someone that was opposed to a doctrine/regime/whatever, went through coercive “re-education”/indoctrination/“brainwashing”/whatever, and came out the other side supporting that doctrine/regime/whatever, even in the absence of a continuing credible use of force. I’ve only seen two actual concrete examples so far. 1. American POWs during the Korean War. Again, only 21 out of over 7,000 changed sides. I think the numbers during the Vietnam War, which lasted far longer, involved far more prisoners, was far more unpopular among Americans by the end, and therefore which should have resulted in far more successful indoctrinations, were even worse for the “brainwashers”. I can’t find any solid numbers, but as far as I can tell, no more than a handful of Americans defected. 2. Patty Hearst. As I discussed above, I think claims that she was brainwashed by the SLA are problematic, but even if we accept them at face value, that shows _at best_ that “brainwashing” can be _temporarily_ successful for specific _individuals_, not that “re-education camps” work on a mass scale, or beyond the point at which a credible threat of force remains. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > > [@gdave](#): > > > > So, torture is worthless for interrogation, but it _can_ force people to give up their beliefs? How does _that_ work? > > > > Was the problem with the CIA’s “enhanced interrogation techniques” just that they were trying to interrogate prisoners rather than “re-educate” them? If only they had interspersed waterboarding sessions with civic lessons and Disney movies, do you think they would have forced Khalid Sheikh Mohammed to abandon his beliefs and profess his new faith in Truth, Justice, and the American Way? > > > > If that’s true, then it sure seems like torture is actually an _extremely_ effective interrogation technique. Just “re-educate” your subject into accepting _your_ doctrines, and they’ll gladly give you all of the cooperation and information you could ever want. > > Couple of points: > > 1. brainwashing is not the same thing as torture. > > 2. No one is claiming that anyone can be brainwashed into believing anything. Only that quite a lot of people can, and that being successful at brainwashing quite a lot of people can have a major societal impact. But I would think you’re least likely to be successful with die-hard opponents such as captured terrorist leaders. I was specifically responding to **DrDeth** there, who did seem to me to be explicitly saying that torture can force people to give up their beliefs. It’s definitely a reasonable argument that brainwashing doesn’t _always_ work, but that it _can_ and _has_ worked. So what are the examples? If all you’re saying is that people can be convinced of things that seem outlandish to outsiders, even objectively counterfactual, I don’t disagree. But this discussion started with “re-education camps.” All I’m saying is that I haven’t seen any evidence that “re-education” camps and similar methods of coercive mass indoctrination are actually useful in changing peoples _minds_. Changing _behavior_, yes, absolutely, as long as the credible threat of force remains. I don’t know. Maybe we’re talking past each other, and not really disagreeing. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2020, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-reeducation-camps-are-they-concentration-camps-or-just-summer-camps/923957/47 "2020-10-28T17:17:25Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > Again, look at **Spoons** ’ link. 21 defectors out of over 7000 POWs. Which means it worked in 21 cases. No one is saying it is a effective tool that always works. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2020, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-reeducation-camps-are-they-concentration-camps-or-just-summer-camps/923957/48 "2020-10-28T17:18:57Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > So, torture is worthless for interrogation, but it _can_ force people to give up their beliefs? How does _that_ work? By breaking their mind, making them insane for all intents and purposes. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2020, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-reeducation-camps-are-they-concentration-camps-or-just-summer-camps/923957/49 "2020-10-28T17:20:42Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > I was specifically responding to **DrDeth** there, who did seem to me to be explicitly saying that torture can force people to give up their beliefs. No, I said it _breaks their minds._ Drives them insane. They no longer have much in the way of beliefs. They will agree to anything the torturer says. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2020, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-reeducation-camps-are-they-concentration-camps-or-just-summer-camps/923957/50 "2020-10-28T17:24:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Which means it worked in 21 cases. Look again at **Spoons** ’ post again. > [@Spoons](#): > > All the defectors had their reasons, but few if any, defected because they believed in communism as laid down by Marx, Lenin, and Mao. At any rate, interviews with the defectors (most of whom eventually returned to the US) make it clear that they were not brainwashed; they just saw opportunities that they might not get in the US. It doesn’t even seem to have really worked in those 21 cases. > [@DrDeth](#): > > No one is saying it is a effective tool that always works. You know what? I concede. If all anyone is this thread is saying is that “brainwashing” potentially can work in 0.3% of all cases, I’m not confident enough that it can’t possibly _ever_ work to argue against that. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2020, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-reeducation-camps-are-they-concentration-camps-or-just-summer-camps/923957/51 "2020-10-28T17:29:13Z")
Ok, then how do you explain the “jack mormon” compounds, where young girls are taught from birth that their place in life is a ‘sister wife’, being “married” at a young age perhaps even to their own fathers? That is indeed 'brainwashing" unless you think that is a choice they really want to make. ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2020, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-reeducation-camps-are-they-concentration-camps-or-just-summer-camps/923957/52 "2020-10-28T17:39:15Z")
Being taught social norms from birth is different, though. By that metric, we are ALL brainwashed, we just only call it that when we disagree with the teachings. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2020, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-reeducation-camps-are-they-concentration-camps-or-just-summer-camps/923957/53 "2020-10-28T17:41:32Z")
I’ve already conceded, but ok. At that point, how is that “brainwashing”? If they’re raised from birth in a community where everyone accepts “sister wives” and child marriage as perfectly natural, then _of course_ they accept it. But at that point, _all_ forms of socialization are “brainwashing”, and the term ceases to be meaningful. I’ve got to admit, I don’t understand the question. If they go along with it because the feel they don’t have a choice, then they haven’t been brainwashed, only coerced. If they go along with it because they believe in it, then that’s their choice. You seem to be saying that they’ve raised to accept things that they wouldn’t accept if they had been raised not to accept them. I mean, that’s true, but… If you define “brainwashing” as “people can be raised to believe things that I don’t”, then, yes, I agree that brainwashing exists and is wildly successful, and once again I concede. ---
**Author:** ![EnolaStraight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@EnolaStraight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EnolaStraight)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2020, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-reeducation-camps-are-they-concentration-camps-or-just-summer-camps/923957/54 "2020-10-28T18:35:14Z")
Which brings to mind Conversion Therapy…where LGBTQ youths are “encouraged” to pray away the gay? > **[The Lies and Dangers of "Conversion Therapy"](https://www.hrc.org/resources/the-lies-and-dangers-of-reparative-therapy)** > > "Reparative" or "conversion" therapy is a dangerous practice that targets LGBTQ youth and seeks to change their sexual or gender identities. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2020, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-reeducation-camps-are-they-concentration-camps-or-just-summer-camps/923957/55 "2020-10-28T19:43:23Z")
“I Went To Camp Xinjiang And All I Got Was This Lousy T-Shirt” ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2020, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-reeducation-camps-are-they-concentration-camps-or-just-summer-camps/923957/56 "2020-10-28T23:03:06Z")
> [@EnolaStraight](#): > > Which brings to mind Conversion Therapy…where LGBTQ youths are “encouraged” to pray away the gay? > [The Lies and Dangers of Efforts to Change Sexual Orientation or Gender Identity - Human Rights Campaign](https://www.hrc.org/resources/the-lies-and-dangers-of-reparative-therapy) NSFW: [https://youtu.be/lFo8NGO4nTA](https://youtu.be/lFo8NGO4nTA) ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-reeducation-camps-are-they-concentration-camps-or-just-summer-camps/923957/57 "2020-10-29T01:46:13Z")
This woman went to a camp for political prisoners in North Korea. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/67ZdOUqDqBY/maxresdefault.jpg "Escaping From a North Korean Concentration Camp: VICE Meets Kim Hye-sook") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67ZdOUqDqBY) > [@](#): > > Like in [Yodok camp](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yodok_concentration_camp) there is one section for political prisoners in lifelong detention and another part similar to [reeducation camps](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_North_Korea#Reeducation_camps). Possibly these sections were completely separated earlier and therefore there are the two names Pukchang and Tukchang.[[3]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pukchang_concentration_camp#cite_note-3) While all the other political prison camps belong to the [State Security Department](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Security_Department), Pukchang camp is run by the [Interior Ministry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_People%27s_Security_(North_Korea)).[[4]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pukchang_concentration_camp#cite_note-4) Maybe who runs them factors into how they’re classified? [source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pukchang_concentration_camp) ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-reeducation-camps-are-they-concentration-camps-or-just-summer-camps/923957/58 "2020-10-29T03:01:18Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > I don’t want to be a jerk, but do you have a cite other than a 50 year old memory of what a high school history teacher said? What’s the evidence that this 1) happened, and 2) worked? Well, I haven’t found a transcript on-line of my 11th grade history teacher’s lecture from 1968, so I can’t give a link. Sorry, what I wrote is what I’ve got. Take it for what you think it’s worth. Seems to me that neither you nor anyone else here really has a sharp precise definition of what “brainwashing” is (hence its persistent appearance in quotes), thus nobody is really agreeing on which of the described scenarios is really it. My sense is that everybody here is saying “I can’t define it but I know it when I see it (and what someone else described here ain’t quite it).” Your own response to my 11th grade history teacher possibly fits that. ETA: I guess we might conclude, as Winston Smith learned the hard way, that “Room 101 is different things to different people”. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-reeducation-camps-are-they-concentration-camps-or-just-summer-camps/923957/59 "2020-10-29T12:01:17Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Well, I haven’t found a transcript on-line of my 11th grade history teacher’s lecture from 1968, so I can’t give a link. Sorry, what I wrote is what I’ve got. Take it for what you think it’s worth. I wasn’t asking you for evidence that your 11th grade history teacher actually told you that story, I was asking for evidence that 1) the events described actually happened, and 2) those techniques actually worked. If we’re discussing what people _believe_ about how “brainwashing” works and what people _believe_ about what U.S. POWs experience during the Korean War, your anecdote is point. If we’re discussing if brainwashing _actually_ works, and what U.S. POWs _actually_ experienced, then I just don’t see how an anecdote of a 50+ year old memory of what a high school history teacher asserted happened to U.S. POWs 15+ years before that really addresses that. > [@Senegoid](#): > > Seems to me that neither you nor anyone else here really has a sharp precise definition of what “brainwashing” is (hence its persistent appearance in quotes), thus nobody is really agreeing on which of the described scenarios is really it. That’s an excellent point. I’m personally putting “brainwashing” in scare quotes because I don’t think it really exists, at least not in the form that’s the ostensible subject of this thread, re-education camps. But there does definitely seem to be a disconnect in this thread about what any of us are taking about. Here’s Merriam-Webster’s first definition: > a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas. I think that’s a reasonable operational definition, and basically the one I was implicitly using. I fully accept that “re-education camps” and similar mass brainwashing procedures can successfully create superficial compliance with “contrasting regimented ideas.” I don’t think that there’s any evidence, certainly none I’ve seen so far, that these means can actually “induce someone to give up basic beliefs.” I’m still skeptical it even works on an individual level, or even for a tiny minority of a mass audience, but I’ve conceded I’m not confident enough to absolutely rule it out. > [@Senegoid](#): > > My sense is that everybody here is saying “I can’t define it but I know it when I see it (and what someone else described here ain’t quite it).” Your own response to my 11th grade history teacher possibly fits that. My response to your 11th grade history teacher is that I’m skeptical that the events they described actually happened as they described them, and I’m even more skeptical that those techniques, if they were actually employed, would have actually brainwashed the POWs, rather than merely enforcing temporary compliance through fear. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-reeducation-camps-are-they-concentration-camps-or-just-summer-camps/923957/60 "2020-10-29T12:58:00Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > I’ve seen seen a few posters on this very SMDB gleefully want to return to Reeducation Camps to “throw all the redhats in when Biden wins”. I tend to stay clear of political threads, but… someone actually said that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-reeducation-camps-are-they-concentration-camps-or-just-summer-camps/923957.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-are-reeducation-camps-are-they-concentration-camps-or-just-summer-camps/923957.md?page=4)