# What Exactly Did Brits Think We'd Do to Louise Woodward? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 9, 2014, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-brits-think-wed-do-to-louise-woodward/685724 "2014-04-09T15:46:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-brits-think-wed-do-to-louise-woodward/685724/41 "2014-04-10T11:15:47Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Further, there’s the weird obsession amongst many online Americans with prison rape. It’s not at all uncommon to see otherwise intelligent people wishing rape, or hinting at it, on prisoners when commenting on a conviction, even on boards like this one. That possibly doesn’t help with impressions. Whenever I come across this, I just count it as wish projection. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-brits-think-wed-do-to-louise-woodward/685724/42 "2014-04-10T12:28:17Z")
So let me ask the Brits responding here - what was the reaction in the UK when [Neil Entwistle](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Entwistle) went on trial for the murder of his wife and infant child 8 years ago, also in Massachusetts? Was there the same kind of outcry? If not, why not? Because the evidence against him was so much more clear cut? Because he wasn’t a young woman? > [@Claverhouse](#): > > OK, but it was still relevant to the denizens of the respected **[Free Republic](http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3017678/posts)**, average Americans, in 2013. I don’t know if you’re joking, or if you’ve confused the Free Republic with the New Republic, but it’s hardly “respected” or full of “average Americans”. It’s mostly right-wing/conservative propaganda. > [@](#): > > Judges are pretty much the same everywhere, and apart from that weird electing judges thing, we would feel as safe with an American judge as a Russian or Colombian one; it’s the juries that worry us. Just so you know, judges in Massachusetts aren’t elected. Zobel was practically burned in effigy after letting Woodward go with time served, but he remained on the bench for quite a while before retiring. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-brits-think-wed-do-to-louise-woodward/685724/43 "2014-04-10T13:07:59Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > So let me ask the Brits responding here - what was the reaction in the UK when [Neil Entwistle](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Entwistle) went on trial for the murder of his wife and infant child 8 years ago, also in Massachusetts? Was there the same kind of outcry? If not, why not? Because the evidence against him was so much more clear cut? Because he wasn’t a young woman? 'Cos I’ve never heard of him ? Mind you I barely remember the Louise case, about which I felt strongly apathetic at the time. > [@](#): > > Just so you know, judges in Massachusetts aren’t elected. Excellent. However you still **[have](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Amirault)** Martha Coakley. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-brits-think-wed-do-to-louise-woodward/685724/44 "2014-04-10T13:53:20Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The comparison has already been made to Amanda Knox. Some people in Britain felt that Woodward was being railroaded for a crime she hadn’t committed because she was a foreigner and the local officials wanted somebody to pin the crime on. Yes. It’s common to take the side of “your people” when they’re being tried in a foreign country, especially when the evidence is flimsy and you don’t trust that country’s system. I just read about the Neil Entwhistle case and it’s not really comparable - the evidence was extremely strong. Also, the British authorities agreed to extradition, so we wouldn’t have much grounds for complaint. If there was any perception that the “Irish” community wouldn’t give Woodward a fair trial, it must have been really tenny tiny, because I don’t remember it ever being brought up over here. The IRA notwithstanding, we have a pretty good relationship with Ireland and plenty of people of Irish descent live in England too. I know some Americans, particularly back in the nineties, were surprised when I had a lot of Irish friends and there was never any conflict; our cultures are very similar, really, and it just doesn’t cause conflict among ordinary people. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-brits-think-wed-do-to-louise-woodward/685724/45 "2014-04-10T13:55:11Z")
BTW, what lead you to believe that we don’t have innocent before proven guilty? Or religious freedom in prison? ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-brits-think-wed-do-to-louise-woodward/685724/46 "2014-04-10T14:04:02Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > BTW, what lead you to believe that we don’t have innocent before proven guilty? Or religious freedom in prison? I’m guessing a roundabout way of interpreting the libel laws and then projecting to the rest of the legal system. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-brits-think-wed-do-to-louise-woodward/685724/47 "2014-04-10T17:17:54Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > I’m guessing a roundabout way of interpreting the libel laws and then projecting to the rest of the legal system. Libel isn’t a criminal offence, can’t result in prison time and therefore doesn’t have the presumption of innocence. Nor does any civil affair in any legal system I’ve heard of. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-brits-think-wed-do-to-louise-woodward/685724/48 "2014-04-10T21:19:42Z")
“Shake me like a British nanny!” _-Stewie, The Family Guy_ ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-brits-think-wed-do-to-louise-woodward/685724/49 "2014-04-11T07:50:53Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Libel isn’t a criminal offence, can’t result in prison time and therefore doesn’t have the presumption of innocence. There was an offence of criminal libel in the UK until a few years ago. It would have had the presumption of innocence in that it still had to be proven that the accused actually made the statement alleged to be defamatory. Once that was shown the defendant had the burden of proving their defence (eg truth), but that’s the case with some defences in the US system too (eg, insanity, self-defence). ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-brits-think-wed-do-to-louise-woodward/685724/50 "2014-04-11T08:14:26Z")
My take is that it all depends on how the newspapers, and in particular, the ones owned by Rupert Murdoch, react. The suggestion that an attractive young girl is more 'newsworthy, than an ordinary looking guy, is entirely accurate in my view. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-brits-think-wed-do-to-louise-woodward/685724/51 "2014-04-11T09:12:17Z")
Sure, and ditto white rather than black, and middle-class rather than working class, etc. Which maybe just reminds us of how much 'papers are aware of their demographics, and what and how that audience wants to hear about its own kind. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-brits-think-wed-do-to-louise-woodward/685724/52 "2014-04-11T09:37:32Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > I’m guessing a roundabout way of interpreting the libel laws and then projecting to the rest of the legal system. I did say “roundabout”, my point being that it may well be a skewed way of interpreting it but they got there via that. And can I point to the “then projecting to the rest of the legal system” bit as well? Basically, I’m not saying it is right, but I can see how someone that has little knowledge of the British legal system could see it that way. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-brits-think-wed-do-to-louise-woodward/685724/53 "2014-04-11T13:22:19Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > I did say “roundabout”, my point being that it may well be a skewed way of interpreting it but they got there via that. And can I point to the “then projecting to the rest of the legal system” bit as well? > > Basically, I’m not saying it is right, but I can see how someone that has little knowledge of the British legal system could see it that way. Perhaps that’s it - OP, could you clarify? It’d be pretty tortured reasoning though, especially since it would be such an extreme difference between the UK and US systems that you’d think it would be wise to check before telling everyone it’s true and using it to pass judgment. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-brits-think-wed-do-to-louise-woodward/685724/54 "2014-04-11T14:03:36Z")
I think the OP was just saying that people shouldn’t worry about the US justice system because of the presumption of innocence, not that it doesn’t exist outside the US. Mind you, that’s an equally questionable suggestion. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-brits-think-wed-do-to-louise-woodward/685724/55 "2014-04-11T15:28:10Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think the OP was just saying that people shouldn’t worry about the US justice system because of the presumption of innocence, not that it doesn’t exist outside the US. Mind you, that’s an equally questionable suggestion. He gave it as an example of rights you have in the US but we don’t in the UK. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-brits-think-wed-do-to-louise-woodward/685724/56 "2014-04-11T15:33:47Z")
I don’t think so; he began the thought that way, and gave the right to silence as an example of things we have but you don 't. Then he started talking about other, unrelated things (our prison system’s religious freedoms and the presumption of innocence.) > [@Jim\_B](#): > > The only thing is, our system is based on **their** system, isn’t it? And frankly, I think we actually have a few rights British citizens don’t. I know we have the right against self-incrimination, and apparently Brits don’t. And our prison system has been the interest of the more liberal-leaning Supreme Court, in somewhat more recent years. (For example, the Supreme Court often hears cases involving religious freedom in the US prisons, don’t they?) And what about innocent until proven guilty? I could go on and on. Certainly the paragraph is not a model of clarity. For that matter, the entire OP is a bit of a mess. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-brits-think-wed-do-to-louise-woodward/685724/57 "2014-04-12T14:51:48Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I don’t think so; he began the thought that way, and gave the right to silence as an example of things we have but you don 't. Then he started talking about other, unrelated things (our prison system’s religious freedoms and the presumption of innocence.) > > Certainly the paragraph is not a model of clarity. For that matter, the entire OP is a bit of a mess. I’m not sure how you can parse it that way, I’m afraid. We have a few rights they don’t. I know there’s this one. And this one. And this one. I could go on and on. If the last “and” doesn’t introduce another example, then he wouldn’t have finished with “I could go on and on.” ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-brits-think-wed-do-to-louise-woodward/685724/58 "2014-04-12T21:45:28Z")
This thread becomes even more relevant since Woodward had a baby last year. I hope for the baby’s sake Woodward was innocent. > **[Louise Woodward walking with her daughter Holly for the first time](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2542281/New-mother-Louise-Woodward-pictured-walking-daughter-Holly-time.html)** > > Sixteen years after she was convicted as a nanny of killing the little boy in her care (inset), Louise Woodward was seen walking with her mother and daughter Holly in Bridgnorth, Shropshire (main). ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-brits-think-wed-do-to-louise-woodward/685724/59 "2014-04-12T22:35:25Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > This thread becomes even more relevant since Woodward had a baby last year. I hope for the baby’s sake Woodward was innocent. > [http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2542281/New-mother-Louise-Woodward-pictured-walking-daughter-Holly-time.html](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2542281/New-mother-Louise-Woodward-pictured-walking-daughter-Holly-time.html) Or refrormed. Not all baby killers repeat their worst acts. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-brits-think-wed-do-to-louise-woodward/685724/60 "2014-04-12T23:32:31Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > This thread becomes even more relevant since Woodward had a baby last year. I hope for the baby’s sake Woodward was innocent. > [http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2542281/New-mother-Louise-Woodward-pictured-walking-daughter-Holly-time.html](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2542281/New-mother-Louise-Woodward-pictured-walking-daughter-Holly-time.html) Right, because having shaken a baby once (if she did), with catastrophic consequences, there is absolutely _no_ chance that she would be able to restrain herself from doing it again. :rolleyes: : proper rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-brits-think-wed-do-to-louise-woodward/685724.md?page=2)