# What exactly did Jesus say? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 8, 2000, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-jesus-say/21795 "2000-06-08T20:48:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2000, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-jesus-say/21795/1 "2000-06-08T20:48:14Z")
In a current thread, [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=26613](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=26613), I asked whether JC would have been considered an apostate or a heretic under Jewish law, or whether he was a radical but acceptable reformer, and it was his followers preaching of his resurrection, etc., who were the apostates. IzzyR pointed out that you’d have to separate out what JC said, what his followers said, and what later gospel writers put into JC’s mouth. Danielinthewolvesden pointed out that in Matthew, JC never publicly stated that he was the Messiah, but in the later written Gospel of John, JC did so state. So, New Testament scholars, in order to have the discussion/debate I wanted, I need to clarify this. Any thoughts on what is accepted as actual words of JC? Any sites/readings you may suggest? Thanks. V. ---
**Author:** ![CheapBastid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8baadc/32.png) [@CheapBastid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CheapBastid)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2000, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-jesus-say/21795/2 "2000-06-08T20:56:15Z")
Depends on who you ask. Nobody knows, as there are no direct writings from him or anyone who was in his presence about what he said. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2000, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-jesus-say/21795/3 "2000-06-08T21:18:03Z")
Wouldn’t you first have to prove there was a Jesus? ::running for cover:: (Well, if he had any writings left behind, that would be one form of authenticating his existence.) ---
**Author:** ![Devil\_In\_Disguise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Devil\_In\_Disguise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Devil_In_Disguise)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2000, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-jesus-say/21795/4 "2000-06-08T21:39:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > Wouldn’t you first have to prove there was a Jesus? > (Well, if he had any writings left behind, that would be one form of authenticating his existence.)\*\* I was under the impression he signed **The Shroud of Turin**. ::joining Irishman running for cover:: ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2000, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-jesus-say/21795/5 "2000-06-08T21:45:46Z")
\*\* CheapBastid \*\* “Nobody knows” is probably the correct answer, but dammit man (person?), people have made their careers creating something out of nothing. If biblical scholars could come up with the Book of J out of several passages in Genesis, etc., somebody has to have an opinion that, yep, JC said this, but didn’t actually say that. No offense to Biblical scholars intended (especially as I’m relying on y’all to answer my question). 😉 V. ---
**Author:** ![CheapBastid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8baadc/32.png) [@CheapBastid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CheapBastid)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2000, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-jesus-say/21795/6 "2000-06-08T22:02:35Z")
Like I said, it depends on who you ask. [The Gospel of Thomas](http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html) is held by some as direct quotes from the guy, others scoff at it. [The Canonized Gospels](http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_ntb1.htm) are held as true records of his actions and words by most believers. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2000, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-jesus-say/21795/7 "2000-06-08T22:08:14Z")
SuaSponte - Some links that I have been following (as time permits) include [this biblical resource page](http://www.hivolda.no/asf/kkf/biblia02.html) that links to numerous pages on the synoptic gospels and the historical Jesus. One of the pages, [the Synoptic problem homepage](http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/index.html) has a good summary of the various theories about the lineage of the gospels and who cribbed from whom – which has direct bearing on which parts are older and more likely to be the actual words of Jesus, and which were added later. Dang, (just previewed this post and realized CheapBastid had beat me to it), but I also found the [Gospel of Thomas](http://home.epix.net/~miser17/thomas.html) to be rather interesting to have a look at, as it has no narrative framework but rather simply (asserts) to record the actual things that Jesus said. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2000, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-jesus-say/21795/8 "2000-06-08T22:21:13Z")
Cheap, Apollyon - I’ll check out the sites, and see if I kin get enough info to get the debate going. If not, I’ll be back. Thanks for the help! V. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2000, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-jesus-say/21795/9 "2000-06-08T22:51:03Z")
Among those who have tried to recreate what Jesus himself said were Thomas Jefferson. See the [Jefferson Bible](http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/). ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2000, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-jesus-say/21795/10 "2000-06-09T01:46:30Z")
There is little doubt that JC actually existed, but there is great doubt as to his actual words. In Matthew, when grilled by the High Priest (Matt26:63) “the hight priest…said unto him…that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ…” JC answered “thou hast said”. In Mark 14:62, JC answers “…I am” In Luke22:67 JC answers “If I tell you, ye will not believe”, and finally in John, they query is not asked as such. So much for Biblical inerrancy. ---
**Author:** ![Dystopos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e79b87/32.png) [@Dystopos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dystopos)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2000, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-jesus-say/21795/11 "2000-06-09T02:23:42Z")
You’re in luck! There’s a large well-funded group of scholars and theologians researching and debating your questions even as we speak! > [@](#): > > Convened in 1985 by Robert W. Funk, [the Jesus Seminar](http://religion.rutgers.edu/jseminar/) has become a lightning rod for international debate about the “historical Jesus” - that is, the real facts about the person to whom various Christian gospels refer. The Seminar’s on-going project has been to evaluate the historical significance of every shred of evidence about Jesus from antiquity (about 30-200 CE). Over the past fifteen years more than 100 scholars from North America & beyond have participated in its semi-annual meetings. The real ‘lightning rod’ aspect of this seminar is probably the way that the ‘truth’ about a particular quotation or fact is ultimately derived: by ballot box. ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2000, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-jesus-say/21795/12 "2000-06-09T03:13:19Z")
Great research & cool cite, dude. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2000, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-jesus-say/21795/13 "2000-06-09T04:50:13Z")
> [@](#): > > The real ‘lightning rod’ aspect of this seminar is probably the way that the ‘truth’ about a particular quotation or fact is ultimately derived: by ballot box. Say it ain’t so :o I can guarantee you there won’t be any meaningfull results. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2000, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-jesus-say/21795/14 "2000-06-09T09:48:12Z")
Mr. Denis Leary has an Elvis-related theory as to what Jesus might have talked like had he died at a later age. From _No Cure for Cancer_ : > [@](#): > > That’s why I’m glad Jesus died when he did. Oh yeah. Because if he lived to be 40, he woulda ended up like Elvis, come on! Oh yeah, he had that big entourage. Twelve guys willing to do whatever he wanted to do. He was famous already at that point. If he lived to be 40, he’d be walking around Jerusalem with a big fat beer gut and black side burns going, “Damn, I’m the son of God. Give me a cheese burger and french fries right now. Where’s Mary Magdeline, I want a blow job now. Come on now! Fuck you, or I’ll turn you into a leper. Give me a cheese burger now, God dammit. Love me tender, love me true, empty my colostamy bag! Oh I think I shit my pants on that last… Change my diaper now!” No offense to Christians, but I think it’s hilarious… especially when you hear it 😉 ---
**Author:** ![galen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecc23a/32.png) [@galen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2000, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-jesus-say/21795/15 "2000-06-09T13:18:20Z")
Aside from the New Testement, what reason do we have to think that Jesus existed? ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2000, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-jesus-say/21795/16 "2000-06-09T14:21:59Z")
Galen: Aside from the NT and the Apocrypha, there is one relatively contemporaneous record of JC - a first century Roman historian mentioned him. IIRC his name was Josephus. Thanks for all the sites (cites), guys. Once I do the research, I hope the question of the Jewish apostacy/heresy of JC turns into a GQ for the ages, lessen those bastards in GD steal it. V. ---
**Author:** ![zut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zut/32/2875_2.png) [@zut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zut)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2000, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-jesus-say/21795/17 "2000-06-09T15:21:25Z")
**Dystopos** says, > [@](#): > > The real ‘lightning rod’ aspect of [the Jesus Seminar] is probably the way that the ‘truth’ about a particular quotation or fact is ultimately derived: by ballot box. To which **Diceman** replies, > [@](#): > > Say it ain’t so :o > > I can guarantee you there won’t be any meaningfull results. To which I say: Why? Surely you’re not implying that decisions reached, after debate, by majority decision are inherently worthless. In any case, I think if you peruse the following site: [http://westarinstitute.org/Polebridge/Title/5Gospels/Voting5G/voting5g.html](http://westarinstitute.org/Polebridge/Title/5Gospels/Voting5G/voting5g.html) which explains the voting system, you’d be more impressed than you seem to be. Basically, voting (and presentation of results) isn’t just yes/no, but more like yes/probably/probably not/no. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2000, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-jesus-say/21795/18 "2000-06-09T15:54:47Z")
I’ve ordered several of the books that have arisen out of the Jesus Seminar from Amazon. I’ll get back to you after I’ve gone through them. Man, this is going to be a lot of work, but I’m still excited about it. V. ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2000, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-jesus-say/21795/19 "2000-06-09T19:15:03Z")
Besides Josephus (a jewish historian), there is a roman record of James, the Brother of Jesus( mentioned as such), and several roman records speaking of his apostles, in which there seems no doubt JC actually existed. In the Rabbi thread, we are debated whther or not JC was a Rabbi, and it seems mostly on the side of yes. ---
**Author:** ![sulla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@sulla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sulla)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2000, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-jesus-say/21795/20 "2000-06-09T19:52:59Z")
I just read a fascinating “Q” book - “The Lost Gospel: The Book of Q and Christian Origins” by Burton L. Mack. The Q theory seems to be endorsed by some weighty thinkers. If you buy into the two sources theory of Mark and Q, it’s easy to believe that Jesus _never claimed_ to be the messiah, and the gospels are full of myth. The author defends the myth development as being culturally vital to the early church, while questioning why people today cannot accept “myth” for what it is. A Christian, who believes Jesus was saviour sacrificed for the sin of man, etc. is quite different from a “Jesus follower,” who would ONLY follow the oral tradition of this cynic-teacher. Really looking at Q is fascinating. It’s incredible to think of how the immediate church of Jesus’s followers could change so drastically in the first two centuries. -sulla [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-jesus-say/21795.md?page=2)