# What exactly did the Indiana GOP \*think\* was going to happen when they passed this anti-gay law? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 30, 2015, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378 "2015-03-30T23:44:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/301 "2015-04-02T17:21:38Z")
> [@bup](#): > > I’m 50, and was never taught that. I don’t think of that as something taught to ‘my generation.’ I’d have said it skews older than 50, at least. > > Not that homophobia wasn’t mainstream when I was high school and college - it certainly was - but I don’t remember people believing it wasn’t innate in some people. I wasn’t even talking about The Church. Homosexuality was still listed as a mental disorder until the early 70s. From wikipedia: > [@](#): > > Since the 1970s, the consensus of the behavioral and social sciences and the health and mental health professions globally is that homosexuality is a healthy variation of human sexual orientation, although some professionals maintain that it is a disorder.[2] In 1973, the American Psychiatric Association declassified homosexuality as a mental disorder. The American Psychological Association Council of Representatives followed in 1975.[3] If you are 50 now, you were born in 1965 +/-. So maybe it skews a bit older, but not by much. And maybe “taught” was not the right word-- we weren’t taught ANYTHING about homosexuality. It’s just what the general thoughts in society were. Gays were considered deviant and sick, not by everyone, but by most people. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/302 "2015-04-02T17:59:45Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > The public backlash against the RFRA laws is the free market at its finest. The Indiana law, like the Arizona law before it, will not be defeated by votes from the political opposition. It will not be struck down by the courts. No, the very people that pushed to get it passed will be forced to walk it back, just like Jan Brewer did in Arizona. It will be a choice between repealing or substantially changing the law or economic devastation. > > Because, as it turns out, most people really do not want to obtain products and services from someone that refuses to provide them equally to everyone. People and organizations that host conventions and sports events take the term “host” very seriously and do not want to patronize venues that are allowed to discriminate against their guests. In fact, the free market backlash forces businesses to “declare” themselves — hence all the “We Serve Everyone” and “Open for Business–For Everyone” signage that pops up in the aftermath of these controversies. It must be hard to be the only business on the block without these signs - it makes quiet bigotry impossible. > > It’s kind of amazing when the same crowd that raves about the infallibility of the free markets suddenly feel differently when Adam smith’s invisible hand decides to bitch-slap them. Well said. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/303 "2015-04-02T18:00:27Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > It’s kind of amazing when the same crowd that raves about the infallibility of the free markets suddenly feel differently when Adam smith’s invisible hand decides to bitch-slap them. I am very much in favor of free markets. My objection in this thread has been to the use of deception and misinformation in order to send false signals to the market. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/304 "2015-04-02T18:01:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I wasn’t even talking about The Church. Homosexuality was still listed as a mental disorder until the early 70s. From wikipedia: > > If you are 50 now, you were born in 1965 +/-. So maybe it skews a bit older, but not by much. And maybe “taught” was not the right word-- we weren’t taught ANYTHING about homosexuality. It’s just what the general thoughts in society were. Gays were considered deviant and sick, not by everyone, but by most people. I took Psych 101 in the early 70’s and my prof, a Psychiatrist who treated patients at Camarillo, told us it was considered a minor and fairly “normal” perversion, like having a fetish for leather or high heels and there was no need for treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/305 "2015-04-02T18:06:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I am very much in favor of free markets. > > My objection in this thread has been to the use of deception and misinformation in order to send false signals to the market. No, **Bricker**. The market heard the signals loud and clear. The problem was that the legislators thought that the market _wouldn’t_ hear them. That particular dog whistle doesn’t work anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/306 "2015-04-02T18:07:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I am very much in favor of free markets. > > My objection in this thread has been to the use of deception and misinformation in order to send false signals to the market. Too bad the market can’t tell the difference between truth and deception without your help. Seems like a weakness. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/307 "2015-04-02T18:13:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I am very much in favor of free markets. > > My objection in this thread has been to the use of deception and misinformation in order to send false signals to the market. I thought the beauty of free markets was that they were always self-regulating. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/308 "2015-04-02T18:18:49Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > No, **Bricker**. The market heard the signals loud and clear. The problem was that the legislators thought that the market _wouldn’t_ hear them. That particular dog whistle doesn’t work anymore. I have documented, in this very thread, the specific factual errors that were in play. As a reminder, they were the rebuttals to the defense that the Indiana RFRA was largely similar to the federal RFRA and those passed by other states. Now, some people in this thread have conceded that misinformation was used, and gone on to make compelling cases against the Indiana RFRA using factual information and fair inferences derived therefrom, so I absolutely admit there is a ground to complain about it. But you cannot claim that misleading information was not used. it was, and I have cited it here. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/309 "2015-04-02T18:22:02Z")
Nobody cares, dude. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/310 "2015-04-02T18:27:20Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > I thought the beauty of free markets was that they were always self-regulating. I’m not sure how to respond to this, because it suggests a complete lack of familiarity with free market theory. It’s true that ultimately, even false signals that have contributed to a misallocation of resources will be corrected in a free market, but that has never been a claim that the free market is immune to the short- and moderate-term effects of false signals. Friedrich von Hayek, to pick one example, wrote in depth about the effect of false signals sent to the free market through interest-rate changes attributable to a central bank policy. Which free market economic authors have you read, and from which of their works have you developed your understanding of the free market? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/311 "2015-04-02T18:29:35Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > Nobody cares, dude. This appears to me to be an admission that you were aware of the misrepresentations and deceptions, but don’t care, because they were offered up in service to a cause you considered just and good. Is that correct? ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/312 "2015-04-02T19:17:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I have documented, in this very thread, the specific factual errors that were in play. > > As a reminder, they were the rebuttals to the defense that the Indiana RFRA was largely similar to the federal RFRA and those passed by other states. > > Now, some people in this thread have conceded that misinformation was used, and gone on to make compelling cases against the Indiana RFRA using factual information and fair inferences derived therefrom, so I absolutely admit there is a ground to complain about it. > > But you cannot claim that misleading information was not used. it was, and I have cited it here. You can say it all you want, you can continue to type walls of text all you want but most of us have evaluated it for ourselves using the same information you have and you have totally failed to convince anyone but yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/313 "2015-04-02T19:35:30Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > You can say it all you want, you can continue to type walls of text all you want but most of us have evaluated it for ourselves using the same information you have and you have totally failed to convince anyone but yourself. If this were a thread about anthropogenic climate change, and someone posted a similar rejection… (“You can say it all you want, you can post walls and walls of so-called ‘science’ but most of us have evaluated it for ourselves using the same information and you have totally failed to convince anyone…”) what sort of reception would it get? What kind of reaction would you, personally, give it? What kind of reaction would it deserve? You cannot apotheosize this sort of reaction when it benefits you, especially on a board supposedly dedicated to fighting ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Joools](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6de8d8/32.png) [@Joools](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joools)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/314 "2015-04-02T19:46:21Z")
“Nobody cares” means that everybody understands that (1) the law was crafted in order to make its actual legal impact difficult to understand, and (2) that its passage was a pro-discrimination statement by the Indiana legislature. The reaction is to (2). This isn’t a willful acceptance of ignorance, it’s seeing through a dog-whistle that wouldn’t fool a kindergartener. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/315 "2015-04-02T20:06:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If you are 50 now, you were born in 1965 +/-. So maybe it skews a bit older, but not by much. And maybe “taught” was not the right word-- we weren’t taught ANYTHING about homosexuality. Yeah - 1965. So it was declassified when I was 8 (although it’s not like every psychologist instantly changed course). By the time I really understood what gay was, I don’t recall any of my peers thinking it was a choice. I _do_ specifically remember one guy in my college dorm telling me he thought it was a disease, so he and I shouldn’t even really discuss right or wrong, since our respective positions were non-starters to the other. [But that guy had his own issues](http://www.wnd.com/2014/04/pastor-accused-of-using-nanny-as-sex-object-2/), as it turns out. Anyway, ‘people a little over 50’ is different than ‘most people over 40’ - there are a lot more Americans younger than me than older. People who believe teh gay isn’t inborn are a quickly dwindling minority. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/316 "2015-04-02T20:32:42Z")
> [@Joools](#): > > “Nobody cares” means that everybody understands that (1) the law was crafted in order to make its actual legal impact difficult to understand, and (2) that its passage was a pro-discrimination statement by the Indiana legislature. > > The reaction is to (2). This isn’t a willful acceptance of ignorance, it’s seeing through a dog-whistle that wouldn’t fool a kindergartener. But the commentary here against the law has not limited itself to (2). It has repeatedly and stubbornly offered up false and misleading commentary about the legal impact. If the objections to the law were, “it’s a pro-discrimination statement,” then I would not bother posting. But the objections to the law have been buttressed with misleading factual claims. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/317 "2015-04-02T20:35:58Z")
Look, when the subject is global climate change, or evolution, much hay is made from the fact that opponents to these positions deny and falsify factual information. And rightly so. Evolution is as certain a theory as gravity; climate change is undeniably occurring. Those who obstinately deny it and fight back with factually false claims deserve to have those claims debunked and a light shone upon the truth. Now, is that commitment to truth limited to areas in which it benefits you? Or are you willing to also acknowledge the facts when they are not all that helpful? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/318 "2015-04-02T20:42:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > . . . Homosexuality was still listed as a mental disorder until the early 70s. . . . I had a psychiatrist who, as late as 1980, believed that homosexuality was a developmental disorder. He favored removing it from the list of mental illnesses, as he believed that helped gays live normal lives. Taking away the stigma was a kind of social therapy, in his view. He was (still is) a liberal, and now fully accepts that sexual orientation is inborn. It can take a while, even for the best among us, to revise what we were taught. Still, as you note, it’s been off the books for a damn long time now, so it’s a poor excuse for someone to hold up today. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/319 "2015-04-02T21:45:41Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I had a psychiatrist who, as late as 1980, believed that homosexuality was a developmental disorder. > > He favored removing it from the list of mental illnesses, as he believed that helped gays live normal lives. Taking away the stigma was a kind of social therapy, in his view. He was (still is) a liberal, and now fully accepts that sexual orientation is inborn. > > It can take a while, even for the best among us, to revise what we were taught. > > Still, as you note, it’s been off the books for a damn long time now, so it’s a poor excuse for someone to hold up today. I think for a lot of older folks, it’s hard to accept changes like that. Similarly, diagnosis of ADHD (damn kids just are misbehaving!) or PTSD (coward!!) or CFS (lazy!!). Most people are not scientists or doctors and don’t necessarily accept new diagnoses. And then the whole realm of psychology is suspect to a lot of people. ---
**Author:** ![Apollon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47774/32.png) [@Apollon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollon)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/320 "2015-04-02T22:07:41Z")
> [@Boogly](#): > > Why is this law a bad thing? If I were LBGT I would like to know what businesses did or did not support my lifestyle and maybe choose my shopping based on that knowledge. You didn’t read this thread, did you? Scroll up and read post #83. There’s your answer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378.md?page=17)