# What exactly did the Indiana GOP \*think\* was going to happen when they passed this anti-gay law? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 30, 2015, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378 "2015-03-30T23:44:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/161 "2015-04-01T16:31:56Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I don’t buy the corporations are people argument. In some instances, there is an implied corporate personhood. Corporations pay taxes and may sue and be sued. But we don’t require corporations to be immunized nor does a corporation vote. It’s just as silly to state that a corporation can have a religious belief. If corporations were always people in every sense, then we wouldn’t have all found it so funny when Romney made his “corporations are people” statement. So the flower shop owner can have a religious belief, but the flower shop does not. It is an artificial construct made by the owner. You open a flower shop, you agree to serve the public like all public businesses. I buy it, though. And more relevantly: the law does in fact allow corporations to exercise religious practice. And it’s not silly at all: the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Baltimore is a corporation. The [Paschal Lamb](http://www.paschallamb.com/), a Catholic bookstore, is a corporation. The [Halal Meat Market](http://www.yelp.com/biz/halal-meat-market-rockville) is a corporation. I think it’s very clear that all those corporations exercise religious practices. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/162 "2015-04-01T16:37:06Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Well… this Indiana business seems poised to act on the “possibility” of refusing to provide service for gay weddings if the scenario presents itself. > > [Indiana Pizzeria: No Pies for Gay Weddings](http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2015/04/01/indiana-pizzeria-no-pie-for-gay-couples.html) And I suspect that business is getting its information from the opposition! That is, they’re hearing the same misinformation as everyone else is, and incorrectly concluding that they can refuse service. Pizza is not expressive conduct. (I will stipulate that if they offer some weird custom feature, where an engaged couple hires the pizza maker to create a new dish that embodies the unique expression of their love and new life together – if that sort of offering is involved, I believe the pizza maker can legitimately refuse.) If they are simply asking for the pizza maker to make the same kind of pizza they make for everyone else… then, no. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/163 "2015-04-01T16:40:56Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > One fallacy in their argument that they seem to be singling out only one (supposed) sin–homosexuality. I suspect that they happily serve adulterers, murders, thieves, non-believers, people who take the Lord’s name in vain, mixed-cloth wearers, shellfish eaters, etc., etc. I might actually support their position if they refused the business of anyone who sinned according to the bible. But when they just refuse gays, then it’s more because of bigotry rather than adherence to religious beliefs. This is a confusing mish-mash of claims. What religion do you imagine is in play here? The Old Testament prohibitions against mixed-cloth wearers and shellfish eaters don’t apply to Christians. I imagine that the Christian pizzamakers would also refuse an adulterers’ love-fest or the catering of a thieves’ conference. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/164 "2015-04-01T16:41:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I buy it, though. > > And more relevantly: the law does in fact allow corporations to exercise religious practice. And it’s not silly at all: the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Baltimore is a corporation. The [Paschal Lamb](http://www.paschallamb.com/), a Catholic bookstore, is a corporation. The [Halal Meat Market](http://www.yelp.com/biz/halal-meat-market-rockville) is a corporation. > > I think it’s very clear that all those corporations exercise religious practices. An Archdiocese is undoubtedly a corporation but it is a religious corporation. Your Catholic bookstores, Jewish delis or whatever may be corporations but are not religious organizations. When your sole proprietor deli shop can claim exemption from taxation on the grounds of being a member of the clergy, then the shop can be religious. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/165 "2015-04-01T16:43:23Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > An Archdiocese is undoubtedly a corporation but it is a religious corporation. Your Catholic bookstores, Jewish delis or whatever may be corporations but are not religious organizations. When your sole proprietor deli shop can claim exemption from taxation on the grounds of being a member of the clergy, then the shop can be religious. You said, " It’s just as silly to state that a corporation can have a religious belief." (I’ll note that you created a strawman argument with that phrase, since the RFRA protects religious _practice_ as opposed to religious _belief_. Can the Paschal Lamb, a Catholic bookstore, be said to have religious practice? How about the Halal Meat Market? Suppose the state legislature in North Brickerumland banned halal methods of slaughter because of cruelty to animals. Could the Halal Meat Market, a corporation, sue to challenge that law? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/166 "2015-04-01T16:48:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think it’s very clear that all those corporations exercise religious practices. But are they\* sincere\*? 'Cause I never see them in church… ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/167 "2015-04-01T16:50:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You said, " It’s just as silly to state that a corporation can have a religious belief." (I’ll note that you created a strawman argument with that phrase, since the RFRA protects religious _practice_ as opposed to religious _belief_. > > Can the Paschal Lamb, a Catholic bookstore, be said to have religious practice? How about the Halal Meat Market? Suppose the state legislature in North Brickerumland banned halal methods of slaughter because of cruelty to animals. Could the Halal Meat Market, a corporation, sue to challenge that law? One must have a religious belief in order to being able to practice it. I think the Halal Meat Market could argue that they must buy meat killed under that religious method (or have it done for them) in order to meet the religious demands of their customers. Nothing wrong with a business being able to buy or make products to their customers’ specifications. Moreover, any Muslim could bring suit against North Brickerumland should halal slaughter be banned and would likely win 9-0 at the US Supreme Court. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/168 "2015-04-01T16:50:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In the nineteenth century lived a guy named John Forrest Dillon. He was the author of an enormously successful treatise on municipal corporations, eponymously entitled _Municipal Corporations_. His view was that state governments held complete sovereignty, and lower divisions of government, such as cities, towns, villages, and the like, had no plenary legislative power: they could only legislate when the state explicitly granted them the power to do so. This concept came to be known as “Dillon’s Rule,” and was expressed nicely by the Supreme Court of Iowa in _City of Des Moines v. Iowa Telephone Company_ in 1917. Said those worthies: > > His was a persuasive view, but not the only one. The competing view was articulated best by Judge Thomas Cooley of the Michigan Supreme Court, and came to be known as the Cooley Doctrine, expressed in _Board of Park Commissioners v. Common Council of Detroit_, that local government is matter of absolute right, and the state cannot remove it. > > So states generally fall into two broad camps: Dillon’s Rule states do not permit the local government to legislate in any area unless the state grants it; Cooley Doctrine states presume that local government has a power unless the state explicitly countermands it. > > So far as I can tell, and I certainly admit I’m not an expert in this area even in my home state, but from a quick review it seems to me that Indiana is not a Dillon’s Rule state. > > For this reason I am inclined to believe, at least as a starting proposition and subject to correcting citation, that the mayor’s spokesperson in your quote is right, and the other commentator wrong. I don’t know why this had escaped me in the past, and perhaps I’m wrong about it so I’ll ask: are cities and counties legally known as Municipal Corporations? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/169 "2015-04-01T16:53:51Z")
Does anyone know who these “religious figures” are surrounding Governor Pence[in this photo](http://www.trbimg.com/img-5515b6d9/turbine/chi-indiana-religious-freedom-bill-sb101-pence-001/600/600x338) during the closed door bill signing of SB 101? ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/170 "2015-04-01T16:56:22Z")
This thread is expanding faster than I have time to read. Thanks for spurring me to investigate further, as I WAS confused why Indiana’s law was a big deal and Illinois is not. Found a couple of sources that explain the difference between Indiana and the fed / other states’ RFRAs pretty well. [http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/03/30/3640374/big-lie-media-tells-indianas-new-religious-freedom-law/](http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/03/30/3640374/big-lie-media-tells-indianas-new-religious-freedom-law/) > **[Why Is Indiana's Religious Freedom Law Different From All Other Religious...](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/03/what-makes-indianas-religious-freedom-law-different/388997/)** > > The new state law has been publicly sold with the claim that it is “nothing new,” but shows every sign of having been carefully designed to put new obstacles in the path of equality. So yes, freedom to practice your religion is good. I’m down with protecting the practices of (especially) minority religions that the mainstream may not think about or account for when writing broader laws. Freedom to cause trouble for other people under the guise of “religious freedom” is not. There is a difference between a practice that affects no one but the practitioner, and one that primarily affects people _other than_ the practitioner. You can practice your religion; you just can’t force other people to. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/171 "2015-04-01T16:58:46Z")
> [@Little\_Pig](#): > > Does anyone know who these “religious figures” are surrounding Governor Pence[in this photo](http://www.trbimg.com/img-5515b6d9/turbine/chi-indiana-religious-freedom-bill-sb101-pence-001/600/600x338) during the closed door bill signing of SB 101? A few ID’d here > **[Indiana Bill Signing Guest Bigots](https://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/03/29/1374042/-Indiana-Bill-Signing-Guest-Bigots)** > > Indiana Gov. Mike Pence won't say who the smiling bigots and homophobes were at the signing ceremony for the hateful SB 101, but many have been identified, and more could be. Any assistance in naming and shaming the rest of them will be greatly... ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/172 "2015-04-01T16:59:34Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > One must have a religious belief in order to being able to practice it. I think the Halal Meat Market could argue that they must buy meat killed under that religious method (or have it done for them) in order to meet the religious demands of their customers. Nothing wrong with a business being able to buy or make products to their customers’ specifications. They could argue on what legal grounds? They are a corporation. What law do you want the corproation to use to make the argument? > [@](#): > > Moreover, any Muslim could bring suit against North Brickerumland should halal slaughter be banned and would likely win 9-0 at the US Supreme Court. You’re right. I’ll add an exception to the law for individuals. They can always slaughter in the halal method for personal consumption – I just want the businesses out of the cruelty to animals business. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/173 "2015-04-01T17:00:50Z")
> [@Kaio](#): > > This thread is expanding faster than I have time to read. Thanks for spurring me to investigate further, as I WAS confused why Indiana’s law was a big deal and Illinois is not. > > Found a couple of sources that explain the difference between Indiana and the fed / other states’ RFRAs pretty well. Did you see that I also linked to the Atlantic article, and then expose the misinformation in it? Post 153. It’s not clear to me why you believe they explain it “pretty well” given the information I supply in post 153. Can you explain? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/174 "2015-04-01T17:02:07Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I don’t know why this had escaped me in the past, and perhaps I’m wrong about it so I’ll ask: are cities and counties legally known as Municipal Corporations? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/175 "2015-04-01T17:03:20Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > But are they\* sincere\*? 'Cause I never see them in church… Dude. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese OWNS the church. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/176 "2015-04-01T17:04:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Dude. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese OWNS the church. I never see the Archdiocese at confession either. I think their claim is pretty shaky… ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/177 "2015-04-01T17:04:47Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Better watch out, everyone! [Glenn Beck](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0kRbdXerHM&feature=youtu.be) says opposition to the law will lead to concentration camps. Pssh, Glenn Beck thinks everything leads to concentration camps, especially that new concentration camp bill. ITS JUST A NAME! For a type of very focused shelter area devoted to one kind of recreation. > [@Bricker](#): > > “If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion, or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein.” > > These are lines from _West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette_, which held that even though there is a legitimate governmental interest in national unity, it was impossible to conclude that “…a Bill of Rights which guards the individual’s right to speak his own mind left it open to public authorities to compel him to utter what is not in his mind.” So your answer is no? I see. Without some kind of operating definition, I don’t see how one can reasonably conclude that baking a cake or taking a picture should fall under different jurisdiction than making a hamburger or unclogging a sewer line You are aware, of course, that you demand near perfect legal definitions from many liberal posters who claim one thing or another and that this irony is not lost on people. And if you demand that I name specific instances or posters, then you’re proving my point 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/178 "2015-04-01T17:11:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > True. And a very interesting question to boot: is the RFRA violative of the First Amendment for this reason? > > I don’t think it is, but a reasonable argument can be made that it is. I don’t think it violates the 1st Amendment, but I do think it does violate the 14th. ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/179 "2015-04-01T17:13:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Did you see that I also linked to the Atlantic article, and then expose the misinformation in it? Post 153. > > It’s not clear to me why you believe they explain it “pretty well” given the information I supply in post 153. Can you explain? Did you read my first sentence that you actually quoted? I know where you stand. I’m aware you’ll argue that the differences are insignificant but there are plenty of people who disagree with you, including others with law degrees; such that at BEST the law lacks the clarity it needs to prevent discrimination, due to the fact that people are, in fact, arguing over what it means. Personally I strongly suspect that was intentional on the lawmakers’ parts. I don’t have time to play catch up on a thread that expands by two pages in a couple hours. And frankly I’m not interested in arguing with you, either. I work, y’know. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378/180 "2015-04-01T17:13:24Z")
If you’re gay and want your wedding to include catered pizza, don’t call [Memories Pizza in Walkerton, Ind.](http://www.eater.com/2015/4/1/8325219/indiana-pizza-parlor-public-deny-service-lgbt-gay-law-discrimination) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-the-indiana-gop-think-was-going-to-happen-when-they-passed-this-anti-gay-law/716378.md?page=10)