# What EXACTLY did you mean december? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 6, 2002, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-you-mean-december/122609 "2002-08-06T14:32:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2002, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-you-mean-december/122609/41 "2002-08-07T18:13:54Z")
Eschew obfuscatory sesquipedallianism! ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2002, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-you-mean-december/122609/42 "2002-08-07T18:42:13Z")
Elucidation circumvents equivocation! ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2002, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-you-mean-december/122609/43 "2002-08-07T21:13:44Z")
I love it when GD denizens visit the pit! ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-you-mean-december/122609/44 "2002-08-08T04:12:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DMC \* > \*\*Although it has been made clear to you in many threads, you still seem to think everyone should be judged by the following questionairre: > > \*Which side do you fully support in everything they do? > > A. Israel > B. Palestine\* > > You seem to fail to grasp that many of us would answer the question if you added: > > _C. Neither, they are both led by warmongering assholes. > D. Both, but they each have major faults. > E. Israel, but they need to change their stance if they truly want peace. > F. Palestine, but they need to get their extremists under control. > G. None of the above adequately conveys my particular stance. > H. I don’t know enough about the facts to make a decision._ > > \*\* I. I condemn suicide bombing, BUT… Unfortunately some people opt for “I.” As in, I don’t support terrorism, BUT, Israel is Occupying the Terrorities, Oppressing the Palestinians, Murdering their Children, Destroying their Houses, Committing Genocide, and POSSIBLY EATING PALESTINIAN BABIES!!! We had the same exact construction as “I.” used on this board after 9/11: I don’t support the terrorist attacks on the WTC, BUT America is imperialist, isolationist, arrogant, capitalist, greedy, etc. How is this even a valid debating tactic? Poster A: Criticizes Palestinian terrorism Poster B: I condemn that, BUT blah, blah, and blah are worse. Instead of debating Poster A, Poster B mildly agrees with A that something bad is bad, but then goes off on a tirade of how something else (usually something B disagrees with) is worse. I dunno, but I guess that this construction might have been what **December** was “puzzled by” according to **Sparc’s** OP. I know that people who post Pro-Palestinian viewpoints aren’t themselves homophobic, bigoted, mysogynst communists, but the continued use, by some people, of the “I condemn terrorism, BUT” construction does cause one to wonder about their true intentions. N.B. This is NOT directed at anyone in this thread, just my opinion in general of how some people come off. ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-you-mean-december/122609/45 "2002-08-08T04:27:10Z")
milroyj makes me think that maybe it is just epiplexis, or at worst argumentum inter se pugnantia after all. I think I have to sleep on that… ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-you-mean-december/122609/46 "2002-08-08T04:50:33Z")
C’mon Sparc, if I am wrong, please tell me why, because I would really like to know. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-you-mean-december/122609/47 "2002-08-08T07:18:33Z")
I think it is more **december** sees supporting Palestine as so terrible, no one rational would do it, yet posters are, and their posts contain more than “ooog ooog oog Palestine good!” which is the level of debate **december** expects from people who would support a place where in his view only terrorists come from. (i hope that didn’t come off as a dis at **december** , it wasn’t meant to be) ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-you-mean-december/122609/48 "2002-08-08T10:22:54Z")
I think you’re right, Tars, and that’s the point that I made originally. He sees dissenters as declaring that A doesn’t equal A, not comprehending that the foundational axioms for _both_ sides are tenuous inductions. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-you-mean-december/122609/49 "2002-08-08T12:13:30Z")
> [@](#): > > _asserted by **milroyj** :_ > We had the same exact construction as “I.” used on this board after 9/11: I don’t support the terrorist attacks on the WTC, BUT America is imperialist, isolationist, arrogant, capitalist, greedy, etc. As one of the people you’re talking about, I have to call “Bullshit” here. There were possibly two threads post-9/11 that were along the lines you’ve described. But for the most part, what we had after 9/11 were a lot of posts like “All Afghanis are complicit in the attack, let’s nuke 'em,” and “The terrorists did this because they hate freedom!”, to which some of us _responded_: “No, dropping a nuke doesn’t seem to be the most sensible response, and it might be damaging to our interests not to limit collateral damage” and “No, these terrorist organizations have arisen from a political history and climate which includes not only Islamic extremism but also some mistakes on the part of the US which we should think about correcting _because it’ll make finding and eliminating terrorists easier_.” But your comparison of **december** ’s reaction to criticism of Israel with the typical US reaction to nuanced opinions regarding terrorism is apt. In both cases, the indignant party shows a stark inability to think outside of black & white, absolutist terms. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-you-mean-december/122609/50 "2002-08-08T12:25:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > \*\*C’mon Sparc, if I am wrong, please tell me why, because I would really like to know. \*\* Because it is possible to agree with an ideal without supporting the actions of other people who have the same ideal. Not everything is “With us/ Against us”. ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-you-mean-december/122609/51 "2002-08-08T13:24:59Z")
> [@](#): > > _milroyj_ > > C’mon Sparc, if I am wrong, please tell me why, because I would really like to know. My insert after your post was serious, I am revisiting my initial analysis of december’s question and based on the extremely summary analysis of rhetoric so far I was tentatively proposing the same thing that Lib and Tars have said. Since I’m not quite satisfied with what december has answered and I am tired of second guessing him, I’m trying to understand his rhetoric. I’m not there yet, but so far I have that he definitely made a persuasive appeal _pisteis_, but I am not sure if it was with an appeal to emotion _pathos_ or reason _logos_. If it was _pathos_ he jumbled the rhetoric and ended up with an invention \* inventio\* called a contrary when he intended to use some form of contradiction. Contraries are typical of _ethos_, while contradictions are typical of _pathos_ I have to break his whole OP down to see what I can get out of it. I’ll get back to that when I am done. I’m doing this so that I can answer december’s OP properly, because I am starting to suspect that we are not even communicating here. Most opponents _and_ proponents are arguing with _ethos_ while december, and you for that matter seem to be arguing with _pathos_. **Answer to as if you are wrong…** The above gives that you might be right in your analysis of december’s intent, but you are, like he is, wrong as far as your reasoning goes. The simplest way I can put it is that you do not need to insert _I_ because _D_ and _G_ perfectly well fit as answers to someone who argues the way amongst others I do. You are making two errors; first of all condemning aspects of a side does not automatically lead to condemning them overall, second of all that partial condemnation does not automatically lead to supporting the opposition. I’ll put it another way:[ol]‘I condemn suicide bombings’ is not equal to ‘I condemn the Palestinians’. AND ‘I condemn suicide bombings’ is not equal to ‘I fully support the Israelis’.[/ol]To draw any of the two above conclusions from a condemnation of suicide bombing is called a _non sequitor_ i.e. it does not follow as in: A=B C=D hence D follows from A - which is obviously wrong. Therefore condemning suicide bombing can still leave you with the option to say that you support no side in particular since you find that there are errors with both parties, option _D_ in DMC’s list. The reason you aren’t seeing moderates regularly take the same stance vis-à-vis the PA as vis-à-vis Israel is simply that there is only one known rabid anti-Israel member on the board and he usually doesn’t join the discussion. Meanwhile december, you and a few others frequently display a strong bias against the Palestinians, which leaves us moderates with only one side to argue against. Basically you could put it this way, it’s not opposition to Israel, it’s not opposition to the Palestinians, but it is opposition to bias. I don’t know if that made anything at all clearer, my brain is a little cooked at the moment so I am afraid I’m not being the sharpest fellow. Maybe I can achieve some reasonable level of sense later on and get back with a more thorough response based on an analysis of december’s OP. Sparc ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-you-mean-december/122609/52 "2002-08-08T14:23:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sparc \* > \*\*Basically you could put it this way, it’s not opposition to Israel, it’s not opposition to the Palestinians, but it is opposition to bias. > \*\* Once again, a poster comes up with a short phrase that sums up an overly long post of mine quite well. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-you-mean-december/122609/53 "2002-08-08T14:54:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tars Tarkas \* > \*\*I think it is more **december** sees supporting Palestine as so terrible, no one rational would do it, yet posters are, and their posts contain more than “ooog ooog oog Palestine good!” which is the level of debate **december** expects from people who would support a place where in his view only terrorists come from. (i hope that didn’t come off as a dis at **december** , it wasn’t meant to be) \*\* **TT** , some people seem to minimize wrongs done by Palestinians. Take the issue of the hundreds of murders and executions of Palestian moderates and “suspected collaborators” by other Palestinians. When I brought subject up, I was challeged for proof. When I provided cites, my cites were criticized. When **zigaretten** provided better cites, the subject was dropped. **There was no post from Tars Tarkas deploring the killings.** What impedes you from criticizing the conduct of Palestinians? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-you-mean-december/122609/54 "2002-08-08T15:03:30Z")
what makes you believe that **any** of us **don’t** condemn murders, atrocities etc.? Seems to me most of us **have** posted ‘yes, we deplore the violence _on both sides_’ and yet you keep insisiting that some how that statement does not include a condemnation of atrocities committed by Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-you-mean-december/122609/55 "2002-08-08T15:24:03Z")
> [@](#): > > _December_ > > When I brought subject up, I was challeged for proof. When I provided cites, my cites were criticized. When zigaretten provided better cites, the subject was dropped. Oh december! Will you stop doing that, for the love of something or other! You are completely disconnected from the real world. This was the last exchange on that isuue: > [@](#): > > _CyberPundit_ > > zigarretten, > I think the current discussion is about recent events in the last couple of years or at the very most the post-Oslo period. And your sources still don’t really show that collaborators=moderate in any meaningful sense of the word. And no, if December makes specific allegations, it is not up to others to bear the burden to prove him wrong. Our side didn’t drop it. Your side dropped it. You haven’t shown that your position is tenable and in a debate the burden of proof remains with the side that makes the claim. You made the claim. You were called on proof. Your proof was questioned on specific grounds. You have not shown that the grounds for refutation were incorrect. zigaretten tried to reverse the burden of proof. CyberPundit called zigaretten on that and reminded your side of the correct burden of proof. Your side has not answered with any new proof or substantiation that the refuted proof should stand. As it is, our side has the point and your side has the ball. Now play the game or concede defeat on that point. For the record, as of december’s most recent post I have cancelled the analysis effort previously promised. This makes no sense, I refuse to waste my time and energy on understanding something that is not to be understood in any other terms than willful ignorance. Sparc ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-you-mean-december/122609/56 "2002-08-08T15:45:44Z")
**Sparc** , I provided 12 cites. **zigaretten** provided 4 more. 12 + 4 = 16. How many counter-cites were provided? Oh, zero. How about taking a stand. Do you deny that these killings took place? If not, will you unambiguously denounce them here? **wring** – to say, “we deplore the violence on both sides” is a way of muting the criticism of Palestinians, or perhaps a sort of moral equivalence. Israel hasn’t killed 800 of their own moderates. To the best of my knowledge, they have killed only one – Yitzhak Rabin. Of course, Rabin’s assassination didn’t have the support of the government, as the Palstinians killings do. It’s not right to treat such unequal evils as if they were equally worthy of criticism. What holds you back from criticizing the Palestinians? I remain puzzled. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-you-mean-december/122609/57 "2002-08-08T15:55:59Z")
And I remain puzzled that you cannot accept “I deplore all the violence” as a condemnation of all violence w/o attempting to ascribe ‘relativity’ to each participant ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-you-mean-december/122609/58 "2002-08-08T16:08:04Z")
**wring** , suppose that during a spate of lynchings in the South 75 years ago, somebody said, _“I deplore all the violence violence by both blacks and whites.”_ See what I mean? And, this example isn’t that bad a parallel. The lynching of hundreds of Palestinians is what we are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-you-mean-december/122609/59 "2002-08-08T16:26:32Z")
> [@](#): > > _december_ > Sparc, I provided 12 cites. zigaretten provided 4 more. 12 + 4 = 16. > > How many counter-cites were provided? Oh, zero. You really have decided to apply that flame torch to the ice that already barely holds your weight, haven’t you? You do know that the Internet probably has thousands of pages claiming that alien abductions happen all the time and only a few that effectively refutes that. Does this mean that we should now take alien abductions for a fact? This was the reason no one except your ‘proof’ and only one (1) other poster accepted it: From the opposition: > [@](#): > > _xenophon41_ > > For the love of Mike, december > a) “collaborater” != “moderate” > > b) OpEd piece != credible cite From someone arguing on your own fucking side: > [@](#): > > _IzzyR_ > > Gotta agree with that - collaborators are NOT the same as moderates. > > I think the whole “hundreds of moderates” thing has been called into question. To which you squirmed and more or less only said; ‘Yes it _is_ the same thing.’ To which Izzy remarked that you need to prove it as well. Instead of proving anything zigaretten adds more cites to the same order…so where do we stand? We have more cites that still do not satisfy the criteria of a basis for your claim. Quantity before quality, great! This is so pointless… I’m going to ask the mods to close this thread now, and if you guys want to go on debating in the other thread, go ahead. I shall not be joining you forthwith. Sparc ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-you-mean-december/122609/60 "2002-08-08T16:32:40Z")
When he’s cite-less. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-you-mean-december/122609.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-did-you-mean-december/122609.md?page=4)