# What exactly don't the birthers like about Obama's birth certificate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 11, 2009, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-dont-the-birthers-like-about-obamas-birth-certificate/499410 "2009-06-11T02:48:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-dont-the-birthers-like-about-obamas-birth-certificate/499410/21 "2009-06-11T13:35:10Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > [QUOTE=Walloon] > > What I don’t understand is why Obama doesn’t just release a copy of the full birth certificate and be done with the stupid rumors.] I thought he had at the time of the controversy, on his website. Am I misremembering? [/QUOTE] Yes. And then the birthers said that that wasn’t good enough. They could tell, by looking at an image on the internet, that it was a forgery, as summarised by [factcheck.org](http://factcheck.org): [QUOTE] That charge leaped from the blogosphere to the mainstream media earlier this week when Jerome Corsi, author of a book attacking Obama, repeated the claim in an Aug. 15 interview with Steve Doocy on Fox News. Corsi: Well, what would be really helpful is if Senator Obama would release primary documents like his birth certificate. The campaign has a false, fake birth certificate posted on their website. How is anybody supposed to really piece together his life? Doocy: What do you mean they have a “false birth certificate” on their Web site? Corsi: The original birth certificate of Obama has never been released, and the campaign refuses to release it. Doocy: Well, couldn’t it just be a State of Hawaii-produced duplicate? Corsi: No, it’s a – there’s been good analysis of it on the Internet, and it’s been shown to have watermarks from Photoshop. It’s a fake document that’s on the Web site right now, and the original birth certificate the campaign refuses to produce. Corsi isn’t the only skeptic claiming that the document is a forgery. Among the most frequent objections we saw on forums, blogs and e-mails are: [ul] [li] The birth certificate doesn’t have a raised seal.[/li] [li] It isn’t signed.[/li] [li] No creases from folding are evident in the scanned version.[/li] [li] In the zoomed-in view, there’s a strange halo around the letters.[/li] [li] The certificate number is blacked out.[/li] [li] The date bleeding through from the back seems to say “2007,” but the document wasn’t released until 2008.[/li] [li] The document is a “certification of birth,” not a “certificate of birth.”[/ul][/li][/QUOTE] So then he made the certificate available for inspection at his Chicago campaign headquarters: > [@FactCheck](#): > > Recently FactCheck representatives got a chance to spend some time with the birth certificate, and we can attest to the fact that it is real and three-dimensional and resides at the Obama headquarters in Chicago. We can assure readers that the certificate does bear a raised seal, and that it’s stamped on the back by Hawaii state registrar Alvin T. Onaka (who uses a signature stamp rather than signing individual birth certificates). We even brought home a few photographs. They then go on to discuss in detail their analysis of the document and conclude that it meets all the expected requirements of a certificate of live birth. So, the onus is very much on the birthers to produce some evidence. They’ve not done so. Really, it’s starting to sound like St. Thomas - unless each and every single birther gets to handle the certificate himself, there’s “doubts” about Mr. Obama’s birth. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![anson2995](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@anson2995](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anson2995)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-dont-the-birthers-like-about-obamas-birth-certificate/499410/22 "2009-06-11T14:13:43Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > But the term “natural born citizen” is defined by Congress, not the Constitution. All the laws cited by birthers as showing Obama’s not a citizen are federal laws, not Constitutional requirements. By any sane measure, the certificate is a legal proof of US birth – the State Department recognized it when Obama got a passport. And the congress has already addressed the issue of “natural born citizen” when the issue has come up for other candidates, including John McCain. **SaintCad** hits on the central issue the birth certificate kooks have seized on, the idea that Obama a) is not really a natural born citizen, and b) that the Congress has failed in its duty by allowing him to take office without verifying his eligibility. The premise is troubling, but the facts clearly and definitively prove that neither of those things is true. The nonsense continues in the true spirit of any great conspiracy theory, undeterred by overwhelming evidence. If it keeps these right-wing nuts from blowing up federal buildings or killing abortion providers or shooting up museums, then I suppose it’s a good thing that they’re so occupied. I’m with **Balthisar** , too, in feeling that this sort of kookery makes it harder for those with legitimate criticisms of our president to be heard. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-dont-the-birthers-like-about-obamas-birth-certificate/499410/23 "2009-06-11T14:14:49Z")
> [@whitetho](#): > > At this point anything that was released would be immediately said to be a fake created by the Democratic Hawaiian administration and the CIA, etc. The governor of Hawaii is a Republican, not that that would make any difference. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-dont-the-birthers-like-about-obamas-birth-certificate/499410/24 "2009-06-11T14:29:02Z")
And isn’t it suspicious that everyone that claims they’ve seen this document is a Hawaiian? How come they won’t let any real Americans see it? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-dont-the-birthers-like-about-obamas-birth-certificate/499410/25 "2009-06-11T15:38:17Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > So then he made the certificate available for inspection at his Chicago campaign headquarters Can anyone provide a link to an image to this full certificate (not the transcript version)? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-dont-the-birthers-like-about-obamas-birth-certificate/499410/26 "2009-06-11T15:51:45Z")
> [@SaintCad](#): > > the real issue has nothing to do with the birth certificate IMO. To me the issue was that there doesn’t seem to be any checks to ensure the Constitution is being adhered to in terms of the qualifications for president. At a certain point, if the Constitution is being violated, it hurts everybody. What if Congress declares an amendment passed with only a majority of the states approving it? Suppose Congress refuses to call a Constitutional Convention even if all of the requirements of Article V is met? An American citizen can do nothing because they do not have standing - I guess a state would have to file in those cases and in the case of Obama being a NBC a suit would have to be filed by a presidential candidate. > > Not to say it’s wrong, but it showed a huge flaw in our system - who protects the Constitution when the government won’t? That’s not “a real issue”. Obviously, the Constitution is meaningless if all three branches of government start ignoring it. However, we’ve dealt with the imminent danger of everyone ignoring the Constitution since 1787, so I’m going to go out on a limb and say we’ll be okay. What possible mechanism _could_ protect the Constitution when the government won’t? The SuperFriends? **Walloon** - [here](http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/images/2008-06-12_obama_birth_certificate.jpg) you go. ---
**Author:** ![anson2995](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@anson2995](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anson2995)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-dont-the-birthers-like-about-obamas-birth-certificate/499410/27 "2009-06-11T15:53:09Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > Can anyone provide a link to an image to this full certificate (not the transcript version)? From [factcheck.org](http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html), with photos in the body and links to downloadbale images in the left nav. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-dont-the-birthers-like-about-obamas-birth-certificate/499410/28 "2009-06-11T16:04:29Z")
That’s the short form transcript. I don’t see any images, or links to images, of the original, long-form certificate from 1962. The long-form original would have a signature by a witness to the birth, parent’s ages, parent’s places of birth, birth weight of the child. As [factcheck.org](http://factcheck.org) says, > [@](#): > > The document is a “certification of birth,” also known as a short-form birth certificate. The long form is drawn up by the hospital and includes additional information such as birth weight and parents’ hometowns. The short form is printed by the state and draws from a database with fewer details. The Hawaii Department of Health’s birth record request form does not give the option to request a photocopy of your long-form birth certificate, but their short form has enough information to be acceptable to the State Department. We tried to ask the Hawaii DOH why they only offer the short form, among other questions, but they have not given a response. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-dont-the-birthers-like-about-obamas-birth-certificate/499410/29 "2009-06-11T16:07:10Z")
There are two “originals”. One is the short form, which the one posted by factcheck is a certified copy of. The other is the long form, which as it says right there the state won’t produce. Presumably they don’t have a certification system for copies of the long form because nobody ever requests them- after all, if the short form is good enough for the State Department, who is going to ask for the other one? ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-dont-the-birthers-like-about-obamas-birth-certificate/499410/30 "2009-06-11T16:24:05Z")
I lost my “long form” Pennsylvania birth certificate many years ago. The “short form” certificate of birth is the only one that exists for me now. When I requested a copy of my own birth certificate from the Pennsylvania authorities, the short form was the only one they could give me. Ed ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-dont-the-birthers-like-about-obamas-birth-certificate/499410/31 "2009-06-11T16:47:55Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > What they really don’t like about it is that it’s the birth certificate of Democrat or a black guy or both. Exactly. The folks in the thread saying “They wouldn’t like my birth certificate” are wrong. They’d have no problem with your birth certificate, because you aren’t a black guy with a funny name running for President of the United States on the Democratic ticket. Obama’s birth certificate is questioned by the birthers **because it’s Obama’s birth certificate.** Note that nobody asked for John McCain’s birth certificate even though he wasn’t born in the United States; it didn’t matter, because he is a white guy with a white name and a Republican. It would not make any difference if Obama’s birth certificate said “Birth Certificate,” was signed by the attending doctor, the governor of Hawaii, President Kennedy and all nine Supreme Court justices, and was accompanied by a color movie of his birth that clearly showed the Honolulu skyline out the window, and was anointed by the seal of God Himself. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-dont-the-birthers-like-about-obamas-birth-certificate/499410/32 "2009-06-11T16:58:44Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > There are two “originals”. One is the short form, which the one posted by factcheck is a certified copy of. Well no, the short form is not an “original”. It is legal for all purposes, but it is not an original. There is only one form of the original, and that is the one filed in 1961. The short form is a computer-generated transcript of the original. [Here is a blank copy of a long form Hawaii birth certificate.](http://www.docstoc.com/docs/1482943/Sample-Birth-Certificate) Although the application form for a copy of a Hawaiian birth certificate allows requests for only the short form, nothing in the Hawaiian statutes prohibits the Hawaii Department of Health from making photocopies of the original long form certificate. In fact, [§338-13](http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol06_Ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0013.htm) specifies that “Copies may be made by photography, dry copy reproduction, typing, computer printout or other process approved by the director of health.” Why the Department of Health hasn’t given Obama a photocopy of the original, and not a computer-generated transcript, to end these stupid rumors, is a mystery. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-dont-the-birthers-like-about-obamas-birth-certificate/499410/33 "2009-06-11T16:59:06Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > I lost my “long form” Pennsylvania birth certificate many years ago. The “short form” certificate of birth is the only one that exists for me now. > > When I requested a copy of my own birth certificate from the Pennsylvania authorities, the short form was the only one they could give me. I’m pretty sure that’s the only one I’ve ever received from the state of Wisconsin, when I’ve needed it. I haven’t the faintest idea where the “long form” is or if it still exists. (For all I know, it’s mouldering in a baby book in my mom’s basement.) ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-dont-the-birthers-like-about-obamas-birth-certificate/499410/34 "2009-06-11T17:07:20Z")
My link above is actually to a worksheet to prepare an original Hawaii birth certificate. [Here is an actual copy of an original Hawaii birth certificate](http://nobarack08.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/hawaii-birth-certificate-1963-sm.jpg), the long form, from the early 1960s. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-dont-the-birthers-like-about-obamas-birth-certificate/499410/35 "2009-06-11T17:11:31Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > I’m pretty sure that’s the only one I’ve ever received from the state of Wisconsin, when I’ve needed it. I haven’t the faintest idea where the “long form” is or if it still exists. The original long form Wisconsin birth certificate is on file with the Wisconsin Vital Records Office in Madison. A photocopy of the original long form is also on file with your birth county’s Register of Deeds. You can obtain a photocopy of the long form from either office for $12. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-dont-the-birthers-like-about-obamas-birth-certificate/499410/36 "2009-06-11T17:13:53Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > Well no, the short form is not an “original”. It is legal for all purposes, but it is not an original. There is only one form of the original, and that is the one filed in 1961. The short form is a computer-generated transcript of the original. [Here is a blank copy of a long form Hawaii birth certificate.](http://www.docstoc.com/docs/1482943/Sample-Birth-Certificate) That would appear to be an application for the State of New Jersey. ---
**Author:** ![Gus\_Gusterson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85f322/32.png) [@Gus\_Gusterson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gus_Gusterson)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-dont-the-birthers-like-about-obamas-birth-certificate/499410/37 "2009-06-11T17:23:39Z")
When exactly was Obama’s birth certificate supposed to be forged? He must have produced a copy of it many times in his life. To get a driver’s license, to get a passport, hell, my kids had to produce a birth certificate to play little league baseball. So someone forged Obama’s birth certificate many years before he ever considered running for high school president, much less running for President of the United States. Who did it and why? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-dont-the-birthers-like-about-obamas-birth-certificate/499410/38 "2009-06-11T17:26:28Z")
> [@Gus\_Gusterson](#): > > When exactly was Obama’s birth certificate supposed to be forged? He must have produced a copy of it many times in his life. To get a driver’s license, to get a passport, hell, my kids had to produce a birth certificate to play little league baseball. So someone forged Obama’s birth certificate many years before he ever considered running for high school president, much less running for President of the United States. Who did it and why? He wouldn’t necessarily have had to produce a US birth certificate to get a driver’s license or enroll in high school or whatever, though. ---
**Author:** ![Gus\_Gusterson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85f322/32.png) [@Gus\_Gusterson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gus_Gusterson)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-dont-the-birthers-like-about-obamas-birth-certificate/499410/39 "2009-06-11T17:30:44Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > He wouldn’t necessarily have had to produce a US birth certificate to get a driver’s license or enroll in high school or whatever, though. He surely had a passport as a child, right (I recall lots of stories of his travels)? You have to produce a birth certificate for that and his must have shown that he was a US citizen. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-dont-the-birthers-like-about-obamas-birth-certificate/499410/40 "2009-06-11T17:34:03Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > …Why the Department of Health hasn’t given Obama a photocopy of the original, and not a computer-generated transcript, to end these stupid rumors, is a mystery. There is no mystery. The one produced is 100% legal and sufficient for everyone and every agency in the country. End of story. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-dont-the-birthers-like-about-obamas-birth-certificate/499410.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-dont-the-birthers-like-about-obamas-birth-certificate/499410.md?page=3)