# What exactly is a "liberal elite"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 28, 2019, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-a-liberal-elite/842609 "2019-10-28T17:26:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-a-liberal-elite/842609/201 "2019-11-06T19:53:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > But someone who has studied that matter will probably know better what the actual risk is in the first place. > > "“Everybody has opinions: I have them, you have them. And we are all told from the moment we open our eyes, that everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. Well, that’s horsepuckey, of course. We are not entitled to our opinions; we are entitled to our informed opinions. Without research, without background, without understanding, it’s nothing. It’s just bibble-babble. It’s like a fart in a wind tunnel, folks.” -Harlan Ellison The crux of it right there. When it has to do with me, or any individual, I do not care how learned you are, how informed your opinion, you do not get to dictate to me what to do with my person. Give me the research, give me your knowledge, but do not protect me from myself. That is the heart of “liberal elitism”. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-a-liberal-elite/842609/202 "2019-11-06T19:55:20Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Honestly, no offense, but what is it about conservatives that causes them to land on the “stupid” or “selfish jerk” side of every argument? > > Fine. You want to argue that individuals have the right to decide what level of risk they want to accept. Well, other people don’t want have to incur your risk as well. That includes first responders who must rescue you or deal with the aftermath as well as other societal costs. That’s why we have licensing for driving cars or scuba diving. That’s why homeowners are required to fence off their swimming pools. Presumably gun ranges are also subject to regulations so they don’t pose a danger to their neighbors. > > Yes, I forgot to include Hollywood. Also forgot to specifically mention sushi and fancy coffee drinks from overpriced chain restaurants. > There’s an old cartoon from The New Yorker or some similar magazine that cleverly portrays how Liberals and Conservatives view each other. It consisted of two panels: > > The first panel shows a somewhat overweight stereotypical Midwestern couple laughing at a pretentious hipster couple eating sushi. > > The second panel shows the same sushi eating hipster couple laughing at the Midwestern couple. > > The clever part is that it’s the same couples in the same scene, but in each panel the laughing couple is drawn to be more normal looking and the other couple is drawn slightly more ridiculously. Haven’t been able to find it online. I don’t know about the stupid side, but the selfish jerk is probably just me wanting to take personal responsibility for ME. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-a-liberal-elite/842609/203 "2019-11-06T19:57:26Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > The crux of it right there. > > When it has to do with me, or any individual, I do not care how learned you are, how informed your opinion, you do not get to dictate to me what to do with my person. > Give me the research, give me your knowledge, but do not protect me from myself. That is the heart of “liberal elitism”. It’s not about protecting _you_ from yourself. That’s the flaw in your thinking. It’s about protecting society from having to pay the price for your bad choices. You want everyone else to pick up the tab when you ruin yourself. I thought conservatives were very much against that. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-a-liberal-elite/842609/204 "2019-11-06T19:58:32Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > I don’t know about the stupid side, but the selfish jerk is probably just me wanting to take personal responsibility for ME. Until society has to pay you disability for the rest of your life, or pay welfare for your wife and kids if you die. How is that personal responsibility? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-a-liberal-elite/842609/205 "2019-11-06T20:00:46Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > I don’t know about the stupid side, but the selfish jerk is probably just me wanting to take personal responsibility for ME. You want total autonomy? Go buy an island. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-a-liberal-elite/842609/206 "2019-11-06T20:23:20Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > All of these are true, with any dangerous activity. > Are we going to ban pointy knives? How about driving after dark? Scuba Diving? Wearing a seatbelt (for yourself) > Shooting guns at a range. > Swimming pools? > > I mean at some point, just because something is dangerous doesn’t mean that people shouldn’t get to choose for themselves the level of risk they are willing to accept to do said thing. Shit, just about everything that we do in life comes with some sort of inherent risk. > > But you know better than the individual if they should have that risk in order to choose to do whatever activity? Welcome to the wonderful world of cost-benefit analysis! Or as I like to call it, “actually thinking about things”. Some things have benefits. Some things have costs. Some risks are high. Some are low. Some corrective measures are arduous and not worth it. Some corrective measure are not arduous at all. So yeah, let’s think about things. Sharp knives are not a problem in most places. In England they’re apparently a problem. I’m not in England so I don’t need to worry about that, though, so I’ll just note that their usefulness seems to be significant and their level of fatality seems pretty low. (Accidental injuries that leave you able to deal with them and clean up after them yourself aren’t a problem. Well, they are for _you_, but not for me.) Driving after dark - it does seem like a startling percentage of accidents happen at night. However the utility of being able to move around at night is massively high for some people, and for many of them there are no better alternatives. So there is need to continue to allow it. We mandate headlights, though, because they help and there’s no damn reason not to. (Same as there’s no damn reason not to mandate helmets.) Scuba diving - I haven’t run the numbers, but the activity is probably reasonably non-fatal on its own. Of course, for it to be _scuba_ diving, it must include some of that pesky safety equivalent that you seem opposed to. For those who wish to dive _without_ air tanks, that’s got a different name, and I gather it’s not a frequent enough activity for society to really care how many of them die messily. This differentiates it from motorcycling. Wearing a seatbelt (for yourself) - It keeps you off the streets. As in, literally, by way of the windshield and leaving a nice red mess. For those in the back seats, it reduces the load on the medical system patching together your uninsured arse. Shooting guns at a range - You wanna go there? You really do? Swimming pools - Swimming pools tend to self-regulate for liability reasons. Stay out of the pool unless there’s a lifeguard or at least an adult present! And if you croak in your own private pool, well, at least you’re dying in the privacy of your own home. Better that than splattering your brains all over the road. Seriously, this is not all that complicated. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-a-liberal-elite/842609/207 "2019-11-06T20:27:49Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Do you think that those who don’t have a sense of the statistics can make an informed choice? I don’t know what percentage of people know the numbers in this case, but from others I do know I doubt it is very high. These kind of crashes are not covered in the media, so due to the principle of availability I suspect people underestimate the risks. That’s why most people think the murder rate is higher than the suicide rate and many people think flying is more dangerous than driving. > > For informed choice, I’m of two minds. On one hand I’m against having my insurance rates go up to pay off some clown who could have survived a crash if he was wearing a helmet. On the other, we always need more organ donors. But you didn’t answer the question. As things stand right now, do you think people should be able to make the choice to not wear a helmet? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-a-liberal-elite/842609/208 "2019-11-06T20:30:40Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > **Yes, NANNY** I edited this post to change the quoted material back to what it was originally. Even though you were responding to points - you are not allowed to change the text in the quote box. Don’t do that. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-a-liberal-elite/842609/209 "2019-11-06T20:46:49Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > But you didn’t answer the question. As things stand right now, do you think people should be able to make the choice to not wear a helmet? Do you think society should pay for the costs of those who don’t and become maimed or killed as a result? Do you personally want to pay for this? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-a-liberal-elite/842609/210 "2019-11-06T20:55:42Z")
People have the right to pay for their own private roads to drive on and pay for their own private hospitals to go to when they crack open their skulls because they rode without a helmet. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-a-liberal-elite/842609/211 "2019-11-06T20:57:36Z")
And their own first responders to scrape them off the pavement. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-a-liberal-elite/842609/212 "2019-11-06T20:59:31Z")
Can we say this thread is entirely off topic now? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-a-liberal-elite/842609/213 "2019-11-06T20:59:58Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Do you think society should pay for the costs of those who don’t and become maimed or killed as a result? Do you personally want to pay for this? I see you answered a question with a question. Why is that? No, I don’t think society should pay, nor do I want to personally. I’m fine with not paying. That you think society should pay and also use that as justification for nannyism is part of elitism. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-a-liberal-elite/842609/214 "2019-11-06T21:04:27Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I see you answered a question with a question. Why is that? > > No, I don’t think society should pay, nor do I want to personally. I’m fine with not paying. That you think society should pay and also use that as justification for nannyism is part of elitism. You just did the same thing. Why is that? So what do you say to the guy that now needs disability for the rest of his life because he didn’t wear a helmet? Sucks to be you, just die then? What do you say to the kids of the guy who died because he wasn’t wearing a helmet? Sorry kids, guess you don’t get to eat because I’m not paying for your government assistance? It’s not nannyism, its reality, it’s real people’s lives. It’s not elitism, it’s pragmatism, it’s being aware how we affect everyone else. This conservative insistence that each man is an island unto himself is just lunacy. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-a-liberal-elite/842609/215 "2019-11-06T21:13:44Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I edited this post to change the quoted material back to what it was originally. Even though you were responding to points - you are not allowed to change the text in the quote box. Don’t do that. > > [/moderating] I will plead ignorance, but I won’t attempt it again. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-a-liberal-elite/842609/216 "2019-11-06T21:17:51Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Until society has to pay you disability for the rest of your life, or pay welfare for your wife and kids if you die. How is that personal responsibility? IF is the keyword. You automatically make the assumption that said bad thing is going to occur and then society will be left holding the bag. I suppose if you had decades of science backing up those assumptions, it MIGHT be a good law to have on the books. Most of them do not though. It is like future policing. You might rob that bank so we are going to forbid you to buy a gun. You might go broke so we are going to force you to save money. I do not disagree that we as a nation of laws look at things that hurt our nation critically and legislate accordingly. But lots and LOTS of laws do not look at much and still they want to think they know better. That is liberal elitism (in some cases), in others, it’s just plain old elitism. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-a-liberal-elite/842609/217 "2019-11-06T21:18:19Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I see you answered a question with a question. Why is that? > > No, I don’t think society should pay, nor do I want to personally. I’m fine with not paying. That you think society should pay and also use that as justification for nannyism is part of elitism. So we have part of the definition: elitisim is partially nannyism, which is when you think that things should be paid for. The alternative, of course, being the belief that if a person dies in the street because they decided that helmets were for mere mortals, they should be required to remove their own corpse, via their bootstraps. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-a-liberal-elite/842609/218 "2019-11-06T21:23:46Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > IF is the keyword. > > You automatically make the assumption that said bad thing is going to occur and then society will be left holding the bag. I suppose if you had decades of science backing up those assumptions, it MIGHT be a good law to have on the books. > > Most of them do not though. > > It is like future policing. You might rob that bank so we are going to forbid you to buy a gun. > You might go broke so we are going to force you to save money. > > I do not disagree that we as a nation of laws look at things that hurt our nation critically and legislate accordingly. But lots and LOTS of laws do not look at much and still they want to think they know better. That is liberal elitism (in some cases), in others, it’s just plain old elitism. The thing about dealing with things at the societal level, though is that it stops being “if” and becomes “it’s happening right this second, to somebody”. The argument “It might not happen to me, because I pray right or am lucky or whatever” loses all its teeth when you start talking large populations. Sure, _you_ might get lucky and survive your motorcycle ride to the corner and back. But what society sees is that people aren’t surviving. It might not be you dying, but people are dying, and society has to deal with that, one way or the other. So looking at this from a societal level, the arguement “It might not happen, so I’m going to act in a way that will make it way worse if it does happen, and believe that everybody in society should do the same” translates to “I actively seek to make things worse.” ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-a-liberal-elite/842609/219 "2019-11-06T21:24:26Z")
Acknowledging reality and recognizing the effects we can have on society is not elitism or nannyism. Refusing to acknowledge those things is head buried in the sand fantasy thinking that nothing we do can possibly affect anyone else or society as a whole. Makes sense that climate change denial is a conservative thing since it relies on the same magical thinking that we can’t possibly have an effect on the world. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-a-liberal-elite/842609/220 "2019-11-06T21:29:18Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > The thing about dealing with things at the societal level, though is that it stops being “if” and becomes “it’s happening right this second, to somebody”. The argument “It might not happen to me, because I pray right or am lucky or whatever” loses all its teeth when you start talking large populations. > > Sure, _you_ might get lucky and survive your motorcycle ride to the corner and back. But what society sees is that people aren’t surviving. It might not be you dying, but people are dying, and society has to deal with that, one way or the other. > > So looking at this from a societal level, the arguement “It might not happen, so I’m going to act in a way that will make it way worse if it does happen, and believe that everybody in society should do the same” translates to “I actively seek to make things worse.” Ok, when does “this is happening everyday, all the time” and “it rarely happens” go from sound law to nannyism? You probably don’t want to look up statistics of motorcycle crashes that result in disabilities (that society picks up the tab for)vs motorcycle crashes that don’t but I can help you a bit. It doesn’t happen on a very large scale. Which is why it is Nannyism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-a-liberal-elite/842609.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-a-liberal-elite/842609.md?page=12)