# What exactly is an oliphaunt? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth, books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [August 15, 2022, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-an-oliphaunt/969670 "2022-08-15T00:22:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2022, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-an-oliphaunt/969670/21 "2022-08-15T13:23:31Z")
Thomas Jefferson, in his instructions to Lewis and Clark, asked them to keep on the lookout for woolly mammoths during their expedition, not knowing that they were long extinct. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2022, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-an-oliphaunt/969670/22 "2022-08-15T13:38:42Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > I wonder if that [tower and horn](https://darktower.fandom.com/wiki/Horn_of_Eld) subconsciously (or consciously) wound up in a [saga by Stephen King](https://darktower.fandom.com/wiki/Can_Calyx). Considering he was originally inspired by “Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came” which, in turn, is suspected of being inspired by the historic Roland, probably a very conscious decision ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2022, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-an-oliphaunt/969670/23 "2022-08-15T14:07:02Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > What we know about oliphaunts from the source material is that they were natural, mundane animals, that were nonetheless larger than any modern elephant, and a few other details like that they’re “grey as a mouse”. That’s it. We don’t know how much larger they were. I suspect that Jackson’s interpretation was larger than Tolkien’s, but it’s not inconsistent with the text. I always interpreted oliphaunts as being pretty much what a medieval Englishman might imagine an elephant to be (like @Stratocaster), complete with all the nonsense and mythical garbage that such a remote creature would be associated with. Something huge, gray, with a trunk and tusks, but not much else factual about it would be known. I mean, do we think had a regular elephant showed up with the Haradrim, that Sam and Frodo would have been saying “Well that’s just an elephant, not a proper Oliphaunt”? ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2022, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-an-oliphaunt/969670/24 "2022-08-15T14:45:00Z")
Yeah, I wasn’t sure about the inspiration for _Childe Roland_, so it seemed like a natural question. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2022, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-an-oliphaunt/969670/25 "2022-08-15T15:03:12Z")
I’d always assumed them to be just normal elephants, but the [Tolkien Gateway](https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Oliphaunts) article says, citing the third book: > Killing a _mûmak_ was almost impossible - its rough, leathery hide made arrows relatively harmless… The only known way to kill an oliphaunt was to shoot it in the eye… So even without a direct comparison in the literature, they were definitely (dephaunatly?) tougher than modern elephants, which could definitely be taken down by sustained archer fire. I don’t know if we have any direct evidence to support them also being larger than modern elephants, but it would be thematically appropriate (Chronos mentions how our elephants would be ‘diminished,’ as with everything else since the time of Middle Earth). ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2022, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-an-oliphaunt/969670/26 "2022-08-15T15:10:44Z")
In **letter #64** that the Good Professor wrote his son Christopher, he mentions a **“large elephant of pre-historic size”**.1 This and other clues is why I believe them to be the size of a large mammoth and not the epically large creatures of the Movies or merely elephant size. BTW: This letter also included Sam’s poem about the Oliphaunts quoted above. * * * . * * * 1 page 77 of my copy. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2022, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-an-oliphaunt/969670/27 "2022-08-15T15:38:33Z")
Yeah, from the point of view of a quasi-European peasant farmer, they’re just “much bigger than any animal I’ve ever seen or heard of”, and hence any pachyderm would have been equally incomprehensible and hence equally impressive. But then we have direct word from the author, in his role as omniscient narrator, that these beasts are in fact larger than modern elephants. One reasonable interpretation of this is that they were similar to some of the extinct elephants we know of. I think Peter Jackson’s motivation was to make them as different from modern elephants as he could, while still keeping them recognizable and consistent with the source material. We modern audiences are jaded: Unlike Frodo or Sam, we would look at a modern elephant and just say “Oh, that’s just an elephant”. So to convey the same sense of wonder that the characters felt, he made them much bigger, and gave them extra tusks, and so on. He had to make them clearly something that we haven’t ever seen in a zoo, but which we could still recognize as being kin to the creatures we’ve seen in the zoo. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2022, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-an-oliphaunt/969670/28 "2022-08-15T15:45:36Z")
One of the things about Tolkein’s Middle Earth is that he seems to have been inspired by images of prehistoric life, incorporating them into his world of The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. So “Lake Town” – the village built on pilings over the lake in _The Hobbit_ , appears to have been inspired by what was then (in the 1920s-30s) believed about prehistoric dwellings on Swiss lakes. (Today the houses are not believed to have been built over water, but over marshes – see [Prehistoric pile dwellings around the Alps - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_pile_dwellings_around_the_Alps) ) The flying steeds of the Nazgul , from their descriptions in the Lord of the Rings, appear to have been pterosaurs (even though the Peter Jackson movies make them into something quite different. Even the Brothers Hildebrandt depicted them as not quite the same as pterosaurs). And the description Tolkein gives of the mumakil seem consistent with mammoths. I’ve always figured them as mammoths, which is consistent with Tolkein’s prehistoric views. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2022, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-an-oliphaunt/969670/29 "2022-08-15T15:48:29Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Today the houses are not believed to have been built over water, but over marshes I’m not getting the distinction you seem to be making here. A marsh is a wetland, and so is at least some of the time, under water. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2022, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-an-oliphaunt/969670/30 "2022-08-15T17:02:50Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’m not getting the distinction you seem to be making here. A marsh is a wetland, and so is at least some of the time, under water. The marshlands where they were built weren’t always wet, and when they were, weren’t strictly water. It’s not like the houses were built over standing open water. Some have claimed that the structures weren’t even built over marshland, but that the “stilts” were misinterpreted fenceposts. I don’t know if that has been changed. To put it in terms I’ve dealt with recently, the Wonderland amusement park was built on pilings with a Boardwalk between buildings – not because the land wasn’t necessarily dry, but because it could easily flood. By putting the buildings 2-3 feet above the ground, they made it less likely that the buildings would flood, unless the water rose over 2-3 feet. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2022, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-an-oliphaunt/969670/31 "2022-08-15T17:06:35Z")
This decides it for me. I think limiting ourselves to just the text of the trilogy, an argument could be made for either a garden variety elephant (Sam’s poem, for example, could describe one) or some kind of mega-pachyderm. But Tolkien suggests something perhaps more like Jackson’s creature, though not quite as super-sized. And I also agree with the comment made earlier that Jackson had to amaze us, not just the hobbits. A parade of elephants wouldn’t have done the trick. ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2022, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-an-oliphaunt/969670/32 "2022-08-15T17:35:54Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I think Peter Jackson’s motivation was to make them as different from modern elephants as he could, while still keeping them recognizable and consistent with the source material. I think Jackson was jealous of the Imperial Walkers. ---
**Author:** ![Toxylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2022, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-an-oliphaunt/969670/33 "2022-08-16T14:20:09Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > tougher than modern elephants, which could definitely be taken down by sustained archer fire. In fact, modern elephants can be taken down with a single arrow, even one shot from a simple wooden bow. Heavy equipment is mandatory, use of poison optional. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2022, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-an-oliphaunt/969670/34 "2022-08-16T14:49:05Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Sorry, don’t know why I assumed that was common knowlege. > > [https://a-z-animals.com/media/2021/11/shutterstock\_1241263612-1024x535.jpg](https://a-z-animals.com/media/2021/11/shutterstock_1241263612-1024x535.jpg) Here’s a picture with an assortment of mammoths: [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Mammuthus_Size_comparison.png/1280px-Mammuthus_Size_comparison.png) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Mammuthus_Size_comparison.png/1280px-Mammuthus_Size_comparison.png) From left to right those are woolly, Channel Islands\*, Columbian (aka imperial), steppe, and southern mammoths. And here’s _Stegotetrabelodon syrticus_, from late Miocene Africa… [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Stegotetrabelodon11.jpg/1024px-Stegotetrabelodon11.jpg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Stegotetrabelodon11.jpg/1024px-Stegotetrabelodon11.jpg) \* the ones in California, not the ones in the English Channel ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2022, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-an-oliphaunt/969670/35 "2022-08-16T22:09:56Z")
They’re missing the mimmoth in that diagram. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2022, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-an-oliphaunt/969670/36 "2022-08-16T22:34:26Z")
> [@Toxylon](#): > > In fact, modern elephants can be taken down with a single arrow, even one shot from a simple wooden bow. [![](https://i.pinimg.com/474x/8c/ab/58/8cab583bcce855aaeeaf1f8485ff1116.jpg) ](https://i.pinimg.com/474x/8c/ab/58/8cab583bcce855aaeeaf1f8485ff1116.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2022, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-an-oliphaunt/969670/37 "2022-08-17T04:02:01Z")
More like sauropod size, if you ask me. ---
**Author:** ![Toxylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2022, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-an-oliphaunt/969670/38 "2022-08-17T12:10:08Z")
A gut shot deffo doesn’t do it, at least in any semblance to ethical action. Heart/lung and brain shots are the options to choose from, when archery hunting oliph…elephant. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2022, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-an-oliphaunt/969670/39 "2022-08-22T16:25:30Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Sorry, don’t know why I assumed that was common knowlege. That diagram seems to indicate that proboscideans hover three feet above the ground. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-an-oliphaunt/969670.md?page=1)