# What exactly is so "Liberal" about liberals? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 23, 2001, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-so-liberal-about-liberals/59093 "2001-03-23T03:39:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-so-liberal-about-liberals/59093/1 "2001-03-23T03:39:18Z")
One dictionary definition of the word liberal is "one who is generous, or permissive,…😕 What I want to know is how the word liberal came to be used to describe people or policies that are called liberal(s), when they aren’t actually “liberal” about much of anything. May I choose to ride a motorcycle without a helmet? May I choose to own a gun or carry it concealed? May I choose to drive my car without wearing a seatbelt? May I keep more of my money instead of sending it to the government? May I choose to be born instead of being aborted? The “Liberal” answer to these questions is a giant **NO! You may not choose to do these things, we will choose what you will do!** Now how exactly can that be called “liberal”? It’s not a generous or permissive state of being. Shouldn’t “liberals” actually be called “limiters”? The only thing liberals are liberal about is spending my tax dollars. No limits there. So, What exactly are the origins of that word being used? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-so-liberal-about-liberals/59093/2 "2001-03-23T03:53:13Z")
From Websters unabridged Liberal 1 favorable to progress or reform 3 of or partaining to a representational form of government rather than aristocracies and monarcies 6 favoring matters of personal belief or expression 7 free from predjudice or bigotry, tolerant 8 open-moinded or tolerant 9 characterized by generosity and willingness to give in large amounts 11 not strict or rigorous 14 a member of a liberal party. Someone has been feeding you awful, intolerant nonsense about what liberals are and are not. Perhaps you should try joining a liberal party for a while. The sheer good hearted diversity of it could change your life forever. ---
**Author:** ![Dignan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f07891/32.png) [@Dignan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dignan)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-so-liberal-about-liberals/59093/3 "2001-03-23T04:51:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Shouldn’t “liberals” actually be called “limiters”? First off, I just want to say you should’ve saved everyone some time and just posted in GD. As for that quote, I could just as easily make the case as Republicans being “limiters” of freedoms. Maybe, instead of conservatives we could call them “contradictors,” because they contradict themselves by saying we should have freedom of choice on whether or not we have a gun but not about what women can do with their bodies. Maybe we should include _every_ political party under the “limiters” title, that’s probably what anarchists think. I have a tough time believing that you intended for this to be an innocent question with all the rhetoric you put in your OP. To me them look like fightin’ words. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-so-liberal-about-liberals/59093/4 "2001-03-23T06:23:31Z")
When talking about liberalism in politics, we should really talk about two seperate ideas, fiscal liberalism and social liberalism. Fiscal liberalism is a view on how governments should spend money. Fiscal liberals, for the most part, support government spending to provide for public services. Extreme fiscal liberals would be called socialists. Social liberalism has to do political ideals and freedoms. Most social liberals support unrestricted freedom of speech and press (excluding slander of course), and are against government sponsorship of religious activities, among other things. This part of liberalism is a lot more ambiguous and even circuitouos. An example is extremist feminists who, along with extremist Christian fundamentalists, want to make pornography a crime. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-so-liberal-about-liberals/59093/5 "2001-03-23T07:00:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pkbites \* > \*\*May I choose to be born instead of being aborted? > > \*\* Um, no, I’m pretty sure you can’t. I don’t know too many fetuses that make any choices at all. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-so-liberal-about-liberals/59093/6 "2001-03-23T07:40:46Z")
You have a point; for that matter, what do Conservatives conserve (besides their own wealth)? Seems to me, they would be better termed “Exploiters”. So, it is resolved, the new political order consists of “Exploiters” and “Limiters”. Sad, but true. ---
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-so-liberal-about-liberals/59093/7 "2001-03-23T12:51:23Z")
Generally speaking, liberals are “liberal” with tax dollars and government programs; while conservatives are “conservative” with tax dollars and government programs. > [@](#): > > what do Conservatives conserve (besides their own wealth)? Seems to me, they would be better termed “Exploiters”. Well…they conserve **your** wealth, too. Who’s being exploited? Regarding **friedo** ’s definitions, you could call me socially liberal but fiscally conservative. Although I don’t follow: > [@](#): > > An example is extremist feminists who, along with extremist Christian fundamentalists, want to make pornography a crime. How does that fall under “socially liberal”? I fail to see how the example is congruent with the idea of unrestricted freedom of speech and press… ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-so-liberal-about-liberals/59093/8 "2001-03-23T13:22:15Z")
Before **manhattan** hurls this deservedly into GD, are we talking theory or reality? Historical or present day? > [@](#): > > **Conservatism** …a political philosophy that tends to support the status quo and advocates change only in moderation. Conservatism upholds the value of tradition, and seeks to preserve all that is good about the past. Edmund Burke compared society to a living organism that has taken time to grow and mature, so it should not be suddenly uprooted. Innovation, when necessary (in the state’s judgement), should be grafted onto the strong stem of traditional institutions and ways of doing things: “it is with infinite caution that any man ought to venture upon pulling down an edifice which has answered in any tolerable degree for ages the common purposes of society.” > [@](#): > > **Classical liberalism** …a term which has changed its meaning, in the nineteenth century in Europe, the great age of liberalism, the term stood for freedom from church and state authority and the reduction of the power of royalty and aristocracy, free enterprise economics, and the free development of the individual. Liberalism advocated freedom of the press, religious toleration, self-determination for nations. It was liberalism that established parliamentary democracy…In the twentieth century, liberal parties were caught in between conservatives and socialists, despite being fundamentally different, and their influence declined. Today, liberalism stands for something rather different than it did in the nineteenth century. Now it tends to mean more government rather than less and is characterised by a diluted socialism and/or populism (doing what it believes most people would (or should!) want it to do). In my humble opinion, there is no “definition” of liberalism (or conservatism, for that matter) – I might consider a US definition of liberalism completely different to my own. I’ve heard similar complaints to your own levelled against “conservatives”. (and along with **Dignan** I’m wondering why this was ever in GQ, since the OP obviously makes your feelings clear about this) ---
**Author:** ![DVous\_Means](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@DVous\_Means](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DVous_Means)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-so-liberal-about-liberals/59093/9 "2001-03-23T13:35:33Z")
In Australian politics, the word “Liberal” is a complete misnomer - the Liberal Party of Australia is the equivalent of Britain’s Tories. The current Liberal Prime Minister is reinforcing this state of affairs; he is desperately trying to wind the clock back to the 1950’s… ---
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-so-liberal-about-liberals/59093/10 "2001-03-23T13:54:32Z")
Maybe the simplest and most reasonable reason for using “liberal” and “conservative” is how the two parties interpret the Constitution. 1. Conservatives favor a “conservative” interpretation of the Constitution; they generally believe that it means what it says with regard to the intent of the writers. 2. Liberals favor a “liberal” interpretation of the Constitution; they generally believe that the Constitution lends itself to creative interpretations to fit the needs of the day. ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-so-liberal-about-liberals/59093/11 "2001-03-23T13:58:01Z")
Neither of the two major political parties stand for individual freedom. They each have their own brand of a perfect world they would like to enforce. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-so-liberal-about-liberals/59093/12 "2001-03-23T15:21:00Z")
I haven’t been in this country that losg, and I’m not sure whether or not I’ve grasped all the intricities of your political system… but aren’t “Liberal” and “Conservative” simply Americanese for Left- and Right-Wing? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-so-liberal-about-liberals/59093/13 "2001-03-23T15:40:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Maybe the simplest and most reasonable reason for using “liberal” and “conservative” is how the two parties interpret the Constitution. That’s not reasonable at all. You are confusing conservativism with literalism. The two are not the same except in the minds of overly literal conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-so-liberal-about-liberals/59093/14 "2001-03-23T16:37:46Z")
\ Let me preface this by saying I don’t have a site to back this up…I’m going from memory, but hopefully my recollections can point the OP in a direction. I am also restricting my explanation to the meaning of the word “liberal” in U.S. political thought. “Liberal” means something different in Britain and the continent. Also, as you can see, this post is long. Originally, in political thought, a liberal was someone who was a follower of the enlightenment, especially economic and political thinkers like Hobbes, Locke, and Smith. The classical liberals believed that government derived from the decision of people to join together to form a government. Rulers didn’t have any sort of divine right or mandate from heaven. They had a mandate from the people, who had entered into a contract with them. It was this form of liberalism that was the philosophical basis for the founding of the U.S., and is reflected in the American political system (Capitalism, a relatively small gov’t, a contract and constitutional theory of law, etc.) Fast forward through American history. It’s now 1872, and one political party effectively controls the national American scene. The Democrats, tarred with the specter of “disloyalty” from the Civil War, have never, since the Republican presidential victory in 1860, held the presidency. The Republicans, in addition to controling the presidency, have consistantly controlled congress. However, all is not well in the party. A number of businessmen have gotten rich from the war, and they, more and more, are controlling the party, and by extension, the political life of the nation. The devestated economy of the south, and the growing economy of the west give these businessmen new markets for their goods, and the increase in joint stock corporations means that they can more easily find investors and raise money to grow their businesses. Corruption is endemic, as corporate money flows into politics, and politicians often go into business for themselves, with powerful backers. Horace Greeley sees this, and sighs. The old editor of the New York Herald Tribune was a Republican from the founding of the party. He was there in 1856, at the first convention, when the disasterous Freemont was nominated. It was his influence in 1860, in Chicago, that pulled the New York delegation to back Lincoln. But, this is no longer Greeley’s party, he thinks. They have forgotten the Negro. They have forgotten the farmer, and the industrial worker. Greeley is part of a movement in the Republican Party, one that is at the same time both radical and conservative, one that says that the Republicans need to go back to their roots, that they need to remember the principles of liberty that led to the founding of the party. Therefore, they have dubbed themselves the Liberal Republicans. Less generous commentators call the mugwumps. Greeley has no chance of getting the Republican nomination. General Grant will be renominated…it’s clear the war hero will have another term if he wants it. Even if he doesn’t, Greeley has few friends among those who control the party. The Democrats, however, are headless. He turns to them, and gets the nomination, but even the combined strength of the Democrats and the Liberal Republicans aren’t strong enough to win the Presidency, especially against Grant, and Greeley dies a month after the election, worn and broken. The Liberals fall back into the party, attempting to reform it from within, and time passes. They are, for the most part, not successful nationally, even though their backing of the Democrat Grover Cleveland leads to his victory. They are more successful on the state and local level, pushing through civil service reforms. However, they stay quiet. Years pass, and it’s now 1896. William McKinley has won the presidency, and he needs a cabinet. Meanwhile, in New York City, a young Liberal Republican Police Commissioner is annoying both parties with his massive ego and his attempts at reform. To get him out of there, New York politicians convince McKinley to make the young man, one Theodore Roosevelt, assistant secretary of the navy. Roosevelt is in Washington, but finds himself more excited by the Spanish war that is breaking out. He resigns his position, and recruits a voluntary cavalry regiment that serves in Cuba. TR finds himself a hero. He comes back to New York, and is elected governor. In 1900, McKinley runs for reelection with TR as his running mate, and wins. Then, the unthinkable happens. William McKinley is shot and killed. Teddy is president now, and the liberals find themselves in control of the party. He serves until 1908, pushing through liberal positions…election and campaign finance reform, the national park system, food and drug regulation, labor laws, laws against monopoly. In 1908, tired of the Presidency, he arranges for his friend and fellow reformer Bill Taft to be nominated, then after Taft wins, goes to Africa to hunt, then to Brazil, to travel the Amazon. Taft is a liberal, but he is also a cautious man and a diplomat. He lacks the fire of his predecessor. So, he compromises with the other wing of the Republican party. The liberals see this as a betrayal. In 1912, TR comes back, rested, and ready for another fight. He accuses Taft of betraying the Republican party, and the liberals in the party attach themselves to him. He’s their hero. TR announces he will seek the presidency again, and leads the liberals out of the Republican party, and forms his own party, the Progressives. With this split in the Republican party, the Democrat Wilson wins handily, and the Progressives find themselves no longer welcome as Republicans, and not strong enough to be an independent party. They therefore join the Democrats. And that, my son, is how the liberals got their name. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-so-liberal-about-liberals/59093/15 "2001-03-23T16:41:39Z")
Ooh, ooh, what category do I belong in? I believe that people should be restricted on what forum they can post political debates in. **pkbites** , I’m certain that you know better than this. This thread is closed.