# What, exactly, is trolling? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 7, 2022, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-trolling/957390 "2022-01-07T19:25:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-trolling/957390/21 "2022-01-07T23:24:53Z")
I’m not touching you. I’m not touching you. I’m not touching you. Technically true. But the intent is to annoy or provoke a reaction. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2022, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-trolling/957390/22 "2022-01-08T18:31:29Z")
> [@XT](#): > > If you are deliberately baiting someone as your sole intent with things you know are going to set them off, then that’s most definitely trolling. If you believe A while someone else believes B, and A will definitely set off the B folks, then that’s a gray area, especially if you really believe A and are just making the case for A. I don’t think baiting/provoking needs to be the _sole_ intent. If you’re determined that no facts can ever alter your beliefs and continue to repeat things that opponents have repeatedly debunked, it’s trolling whether or not you have a deliberate motive to annoy. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2022, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-trolling/957390/23 "2022-01-08T22:31:36Z")
Thank you all for replying. A most interesting thread. The problem, for a mod, is judging intent. There is no doubt in my mind, for example, that Biden was consciously trying to get Trump’s goat. The use of the word “loser” is especially telling. And Trump responded as expected, of course. Well, I will try to do my best. And some will disagree. Oh, and thanks for the term “sealioning”. Potentially useful. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2022, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-trolling/957390/24 "2022-01-08T23:20:40Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > The problem, for a mod, is judging intent. There is no doubt in my mind, for example, that Biden was consciously trying to get Trump’s goat. The use of the word “loser” is especially telling. No doubt in your mind? What if I told you Biden never once used the word “loser” in his speech? [Here’s the transcript](https://www.npr.org/2022/01/06/1070931178/jan-6-anniversary-biden-speech-transcript). You’re not the only one to make this mistake, of course. I wonder what it says that so many people are reporting this error as truth and making broad judgments from it. ---
**Author:** ![Esprise\_Me](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprise_me/32/2947_2.png) [@Esprise\_Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprise_Me)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2022, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-trolling/957390/25 "2022-01-08T23:29:29Z")
I agree that intent is key, but I’m not sure what the standard should be. In legal terms, there’s specific intent (you wanted to provoke that exact reaction), general intent (you wanted to provoke some kind of reaction), but also recklessness (you had to have known you were going to provoke a reaction, and you did it anyway.) I agree with Velocity’s example of gloating on a dead person’s Facebook page, and think even if that was merely reckless, it’s trolling. But speaking ill of the dead shouldn’t always be considered trolling. It’s not trolling to discuss how Hitler was a bad guy, even if it upsets some Nazis, and even if you know those Nazis are within earshot. So if we’re employing a recklessness standard, there’s got to be some consideration of what you did specifically intend, the validity of that purpose, and the reasonableness of your actions in service of it. It’s hard to judge what someone’s specific intent was, but juries are tasked with doing so all the time. Mods can do it too. ---
**Author:** ![Pseudonym](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pseudonym/32/9895_2.png) [@Pseudonym](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pseudonym)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2022, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-trolling/957390/26 "2022-01-09T00:02:03Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > The use of the word “loser” is especially telling. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I wonder what it says that so many people are reporting this error as truth I’m sure there is a term in psychology for this exact phenomenon, but I can’t be bothered to look it up right now. Sort of facinating to see it ‘in action’ like this. I wasn’t aware of ‘sealioning’, and now I’m worried that some of my posts might be interpreted as such. Glad I learned about it though. To me, trolling, at least in what I understood it as in the original definition, is easiest to grasp by looking at a badly executed example of it. “Obvious troll is obvious”, as the saying goes – not that see it in the wild is a sure sign that an actual troll has been found out; it just points out that a key aspect of real and skillfully executed trolling is not being detected. Success on the other hand is provoking a disproportionate reaction, and sustaining it as long as possible. These days it would seem that trolling often refers to somebody simply being annoying. I guess that’s kind of a natural development, as being annoying is the part of trolling that is one defining factor of it, and of course the obvious one for anybody to see. The other key aspects aren’t so easy to pinpoint, simply by design. To me a classic case of trolling is, when the perpetrator discovers something they can “poke at” directly or indirectly in order to aggravate. I think maybe the simplest and most obvious trolling I’ve seen has been somebody deliberately pretending to be stupid, and to misunderstand or not understand something no matter how simple it is and how many times it’s explained. Also, any clarifying questions were just used to compounding on the aggravation and to try to string along the ‘victim’ or ‘mark’ as long as possible. “Don’t take the bait”, is the best advice to keep in mind, one I think I wanted to give on here sometimes (that was before I joined). Sticking to the credo of “fighting ignorance” can sometimes be a handicap when it comes to dealing with trolls, unfortunately. The only trick I can really think of for winning any battles on this front is to try and develop one’s skill of detecting sincerity to be as acute as possible. (Is there a modernized version of Spiderman with expanded senses that work on the Web?) Not having listened to Biden’s speach, based on what I quickly gleaned from this thread, it doesn’t seem like it would really fit the definition of trolling that I work under. Although it’s a bit unclear what was actually said… But let’s say he was obviously referring to the election, I wouldn’t call that trolling, since there was no ambiguity. If on the other hand he slipped in something that could have been interpreted in different ways, but Trump took it to be about him, and as a result he flew off the handle and made even more of a clown of himself, then it could be trolling – BUT, only if that was Biden’s intention. So yeah, it’s tricky. Especially I’d say, based on a single occurence. Although, even if stringing the victim along is a very good sign that trolling is going on, of course one of the most succesful forms of trollings would be to cause as many rage-filled responses in one go as possible. Wouldn’t be surprised if it’s happened here a lot; start a thread with an asinine, bonkers or offensive OP, then just sit back and watch as one well meaning or annoyed but knowledgeable user after another wastes their time trying to fight the ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2022, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-trolling/957390/27 "2022-01-09T01:25:20Z")
> [@Pseudonym](#): > > I’m sure there is a term in psychology for this exact phenomenon, but I can’t be bothered to look it up right now. Sort of facinating to see it ‘in action’ like this. The Mandela Effect. > **[Mandela effect: What Is It, how It works, and more](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/mandela-effect)** > > The Mandela effect is one popular but heavily debated type of false memory. Learn more about it here, including potential causes and some famous examples. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2022, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-trolling/957390/28 "2022-01-09T01:45:47Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > What if I told you Biden never once used the word “loser” in his speech? Ha, yes he did. > **[‘SNL’: Jim Carrey’s Joe Biden calls Trump a ‘loser’; Alec Baldwin glad to be...](https://www.syracuse.com/entertainment/2020/11/snl-jim-carreys-joe-biden-calls-trump-a-loser-alec-baldwin-glad-to-be-out-of-a-job.html)** > > It was the first episode of “SNL” since the presidential race was called in favor of Biden. ---
**Author:** ![Esprise\_Me](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprise_me/32/2947_2.png) [@Esprise\_Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprise_Me)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2022, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-trolling/957390/29 "2022-01-09T04:15:01Z")
LOL, reminds me of when Tina Fey as Sarah Palin said “I can see Russia from my house!” and that became the version people remembered. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2022, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-trolling/957390/30 "2022-01-09T11:16:49Z")
My issue with calling it “trolling” is that said term has a very negative connotation when used by itself. Inasmuch as Biden was trolling, he was doing the classic “trolling the troll.” He was baiting Trump to troll back in a specific way. Simply trying to get under his skin would accomplish little on its own. It’s only being used as a defense to keep Trump from disrupting. Trolling is about disruption. Using similar tactics to try and stop or control a disruption seems like a different thing. Personally, I’d stick with terms like “provoking” or even “baiting.” Biden may have chosen certain terms to provoke Trump into attacking those terms and not the general message. That said, I’m not sure that’s what he was doing. He could be doing more of a “rip the bandaid off” technique. Admit that which Trump won’t admit, using the words he doesn’t want to say. It doesn’t have to be about provoking a reaction, but just saying a truth that Trump and his followers find uncomfortable. And it can also be for the other side, too. There’s use in showing solidarity. There’s something good in telling the American public that it’s okay to call him a “loser,” that it’s an important association we as the public should be making. He could be saying it for the same reason we say it even when Trump clearly isn’t going to read our posts here. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2022, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-trolling/957390/31 "2022-01-09T11:31:44Z")
I have always thought trolling was saying something untrue in order to cause conflict. Honesty is a stout defense to the charge of trolling. Mind you a troll might express an opinion he holds to be factually correct and still be a troll, even by mistake. Many people misunderstand what they feel to be true as opposed to what can be proven to be true. Other people use playful words that are taken as provocations by readers who misunderstand or who are simply looking for a fight. I suppose humor and attempts at it are also not really trolling. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2022, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-trolling/957390/32 "2022-01-09T13:25:53Z")
Trolling is a miss-spelling. Back in the early days of the Internet, it wasn’t trolling, and people weren’t trolls. The word was _ **trawling** _. As in industrial scale fishing. There was a shift in spelling in probably the mid-90’s. The shift caught on quickly as many saw the humour in calling people engaging in the practice _trolls_. Baiting people, and admonitions to not take the bait are exactly on target. The activity was prevalent on various usenet groups, and probably dates back further, probably even to early BB nets. Trawlers, which soon became trolls, engage in large scale baiting in order to get a rise out of any or all readers of a forum. The more that take the bait, the higher the success. So the rule about not calling a member of the Dope a troll makes clear sense. They are being accused of insincerity and engaging in the conversation for no other reason than to rile others up. That is a serious accusation. So, for the OP, trolling is insincere engagement where the only aim is to annoy and get a reaction. Done on forums simply in order to reach as large an audience as possible, and thus get as many bites as possible. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2022, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-trolling/957390/33 "2022-01-09T13:50:17Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > BTW, I’m not a mod or anything on this board, but here, you don’t have to intend to troll in order to be considered a troll. You can be sincere in your beliefs, not intending to rile anyone up, but if you, for example, refuse to look at cites or engage in arguments on the debate boards, you could be modded for trolling. My idea, before the SDMB crazy one, was that trolling was intentionally posting something inflammatory to get a rise out of people _and that you did not personally believe_. So if I have a rather minority, unpopular belief, say I believe that segregation was a good thing (I don’t), and I post it, I know that it will piss off people, but I would not be trolling because I was saying something that I sincerely believed. To mod something as trolling because it will get a rise out of people when the poster believes it only serves to silence minority and/or unpopular views. Refusing to look at cites is just assholishness and poor debate form. I don’t see how that fits into the definition of trolling. ---
**Author:** ![Pseudonym](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pseudonym/32/9895_2.png) [@Pseudonym](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pseudonym)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2022, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-trolling/957390/34 "2022-01-09T13:59:55Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > intentionally posting something inflammatory to get a rise out of people _and that you did not personally believe_ . I think this is a very good description. In the strict sense, a troll’s only motivation is to disrupt, derail and aggravate. Although, I also think it’s not an absolute requirement that the perpetrator doesn’t believe in their statements. Their behaviour can still qualify as trolling for other reasons. I would say that behaving completely unreasonably, like completely refusing to even look at cites is consistent with the mechanics of trolling. It can be just another tool for stringing the victim along and maximising their frustration. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2022, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-trolling/957390/35 "2022-01-09T14:00:49Z")
I didn’t say that posting unpopular beliefs is trolling. I said that you can be sincere and still be considered trolling here. If you post that you think segregation was a good thing in one of the debate boards, and people post cites that show reasons why it’s not (to make up examples: schools improve or economic development is better or whatever, I’m not trying to debate that here), and you just repeat your view and refuse to engage in debate, well, that’s essentially trolling on those subforums. Trolling is not allowed on this board, even in the Pit. The definition of trolling can vary depending on the forum – one can ignore cites all day long in the Pit, but not in the debate boards. If you repeatedly bring politics into QZ or MPSIMS, you could be considered trolling, etc. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2022, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-trolling/957390/36 "2022-01-09T14:03:52Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I said that you can be sincere and still be considered trolling here. If you post that you think segregation was a good thing in one of the debate boards, and people post cites that show reasons why it’s not (to make up examples: schools improve or economic development is better or whatever, I’m not trying to debate that here), and you just repeat your view and refuse to engage in debate, well, that’s essentially trolling on those subforums. I think we are on the same page, but I think stated more succinctly, such behavior that you describe would be _evidence_ that the person was not sincere in his belief regarding segregation but only meant to get a rise out of people. But simply ignoring cites and restating an unsupported claim cannot be trolling because it happens a lot when it is clearly not trolling/not used to get a rise out of people. Some people are just very poor debaters. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2022, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-trolling/957390/37 "2022-01-09T14:07:38Z")
The person could be very sincere in their beliefs, but unwilling to listen to opposing viewpoints. In any case, it’s behavior to be avoided on this board at least. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2022, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-trolling/957390/38 "2022-01-09T14:10:09Z")
I don’t think what a troll believes in or not matters. What matters is a lack of sincerity in engaging in conversation. A troll may totally believe in what they say, but they choose a forum, target audience, and way of expressing it in a manner calculated to annoy and get a rise out of the readership. Right wingers posting in left wing news groups, and vice versa, would be a perfect example. The posters are quite honest in their beliefs, they are however posting for no other reason than to annoy others. That is an insincere engagement in the conversation and thus trolling. We do have posters from time to time who very clearly will not be shaken in their beliefs, and continue to post endlessly. A recent thread on special relativity comes to mind. Said poster was sincere, but both wrong and not capable of understanding they were wrong. Despite everything, and how annoying they were, they were almost certainly not a troll. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2022, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-trolling/957390/39 "2022-01-09T15:22:58Z")
Trolls and assholes behave in such similar behavior that it can be hard to distinguish between them. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2022, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-trolling/957390/40 "2022-01-09T19:16:16Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > What if I told you Biden never once used the word “loser” in his speech? Gaagh. I apologize. I could have sworn I read somewhere that he used that word. But I think he emphasized that the former president had lost the election. And I still think he was trying to rile up Trump. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-trolling/957390.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-trolling/957390.md?page=3)