# What exactly killed al-zarqawi? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 8, 2006, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-killed-al-zarqawi/359904 "2006-06-08T16:16:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2006, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-killed-al-zarqawi/359904/21 "2006-06-11T19:45:10Z")
> [@FRDE](#): > > We have a ‘first hand’ report of US soldiers covering his head and kicking sh\*t out of him, that does not make sense, the US troops in the area would be amongst the smartest, they would have wanted to keep him alive. I really want to see that report. Can you paste a link? > [@](#): > > We also have reports that the ‘action’ was down to Jordanian Intelligence, probably true, Jordan would like to send a message to people that blow up weddings in Jordan, are in for a hard time. I’d like to see this report, too. You seem to be really avoiding Occam’s Razor here; which do you think is more likely: (1) We found Zarqawi, dropped two 500-pounders on/near his house, and he staggered out of the wreckage to die a few moments later, or (2) Jordanian Intelligence Agents killed him, Photoshopped the bullet hole off his face, and asked the United States to “fake up” some F-16 footage? > [@](#): > > Being British, I have long said that the best way of dealing with terrorists is to feign their deaths, let them watch their funerals, and quietly convert their outlook. Just the sight of Zarqawi’s pretty undamaged face, should be enough to frighten the daylights out of anyone he knows. I have a feeling that the US has finally latched onto psychological warfare, if the Saudis found Bin Laden in a Pakistani hospital dying of AIDS it would confirm it. So you’re British, therefore terrorists should fake their deaths… therefore Zarqawi not being hurt should scare his associates… therefore we’ve infected Osama with AIDS? Okay, I guess I can buy that logic. …but what happens if you’re not British? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2006, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-killed-al-zarqawi/359904/22 "2006-06-11T20:23:06Z")
> [@Lee from Texas](#): > > But hey, if you happen to run across a guy who leads an organization dedicated to killing you and your brothers, you might be inclined to let him know what time it is. I damn sure would. I hope you’re not saying you’d beat the guy to death, knowing how extraordinarily valuable he might be if captured. I mean, I sympathize, but you’re not putting soldiers in a very good light by saying that. ---
**Author:** ![Lee\_from\_Texas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Lee\_from\_Texas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lee_from_Texas)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-killed-al-zarqawi/359904/23 "2006-06-12T02:18:17Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I hope you’re not saying you’d beat the guy to death, knowing how extraordinarily valuable he might be if captured. I mean, I sympathize, but you’re not putting soldiers in a very good light by saying that. I’m not saying it would be a good idea, but I’m not saying it’s inconceivable. I do believe in the Law of Land Warfare/Geneva Convention/treating captives humanely. But every once in a while, you run across a special case. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-killed-al-zarqawi/359904/24 "2006-06-12T02:29:32Z")
> [@Lee from Texas](#): > > I’m not saying it would be a good idea, but I’m not saying it’s inconceivable. No, it’s not inconceivable. > [@](#): > > But every once in a while, you run across a special case. Right. But that’s why you need the laws. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-killed-al-zarqawi/359904/25 "2006-06-12T03:46:40Z")
> [@Lee from Texas](#): > > I’m not saying it would be a good idea, but I’m not saying it’s inconceivable. I do believe in the Law of Land Warfare/Geneva Convention/treating captives humanely. But every once in a while, you run across a special case. So, if Zarqawi decided that you were a special case and needed to be beheaded, he would be justified? ☹ ---
**Author:** ![fluffyemu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@fluffyemu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluffyemu)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-killed-al-zarqawi/359904/26 "2006-06-12T03:57:53Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m gonna go out on a limb here and guess you’re not a soldier. I am. Yeah we all know about the Geneva Convention blah blah blah. But hey, if you happen to run across a guy who leads an organization dedicated to killing you and your brothers, you might be inclined to let him know what time it is. I damn sure would. I completely understand that a lot of soldiers wanted this sucker dead. But I have to object to the generalization that “if you were a soldier, you would too.” There are a LOT of soldiers-turned-pacifists who’ve come home from Iraq, not to mention people who believe the best punishment is rotting in jail forever. Moreover, Nick Berg’s father condemned the death. Whatever you may he think about his comments, he’s in a much more direct position than any of us. Some relatives of victims want him dead, some don’t. My point is, just because someone’s not a soldier doesn’t mean their disagreement is somehow invalid. There are soldiers and survivors who disagree too. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-killed-al-zarqawi/359904/27 "2006-06-12T07:54:34Z")
> [@fluffyemu](#): > > Moreover, Nick Berg’s father condemned the death. Do you have a link for that? From what I’ve read, he says he takes no happiness or satisfaction from Zarqawi’s death, but he hasn’t condemned the bombing as far as I know. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-killed-al-zarqawi/359904/28 "2006-06-12T13:09:23Z")
@Lee From Texas You are right, I am not a soldier, but I have been around long enough, and met enough of the type, to be sure that the guys checking out the site would be top class. If they had been ordered to kill him, he would not need kicking - and there would have been no witnesses (not that I believe the ‘witness’) - also it would have been painful, but have left no marks. @?? The Jordanian link was in the UK Observer page 30 11th June I was surprized by it, it is clearly a UK ‘plant’, a clear message that Jordan is not at all keen on their people cooperating with Al Qaeda, which is not that surprizing. A few weeks before they ran an interview with a youngish Yemeni who has a taste for Qaat (sp ?) and had wandered around a bit. The article was deliberately sympathetic, and pointed out that the State of Yemen did not mind them provided they retired and did not make trouble. Personally I don’t much mind ‘embedded reporting’, it normally tells you more about the situation than you’ll get from a news report written 500 miles from the site. - you just have to read it slideways Perhaps I believe in conspiracy theory - possibly I believe in ‘black propoganda’ as taught me by my uncle from WWII - this smells competent - competent disinformation is amplified truth ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-killed-al-zarqawi/359904/29 "2006-06-12T13:09:58Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Blast injuries often affect the lung and cause grave consequences. [That was it:](http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/12/zarqawi.autopsy.ap/) > [@](#): > > Abu Musab al-Zarqawi lived for 52 minutes after a U.S. warplane bombed his hideout northeast of Baghdad… > Col. Steve Jones, command surgeon for Multinational Forces, said an autopsy concluded that the terrorist leader died from serious injuries to his lungs. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2006, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-killed-al-zarqawi/359904/30 "2006-06-13T01:47:15Z")
> [@FRDE](#): > > I was **surprized** by it, it is clearly a UK ‘plant’, a clear message that Jordan is not at all keen on their people cooperating with Al Qaeda, which is not that **surprizing.** Enuff of a good thing. I got it. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2006, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-killed-al-zarqawi/359904/31 "2006-06-13T13:41:23Z")
@Samuel Clements (Mark Twain - or ‘watch it - shallow water’) You misunderstood, or are making a joke. My latest update is that Iraqi Police were first on site, followed up 30 mins later by US troops - source BBC World Service Radio circa 02:00 GMT last night (they are reliable - they don’t lie, but they don’t tell everything - often they release stuff you don’t hear anywhere else) Personally I would not have expected him to be alive - with 500lb bombs - also if (as stated elsewhere) ground troops used Lasers to guide the bombs. This is some sort of public relations exerciSe (happy Mark ?) designed to implicate the supposed finders with something … That was either an operation that went right, or one that went wrong, in a peculiar way, perhaps the percussion (not explosive) bombs dropped a stone on his head. @LeeFromTexas It is ridiculous that they are making so much fuss about that village - everybody over the age of seven, and under the age of seventy would have known exactly what was going on when the bomb was planted. They would have known where the secondary ambush was. Probably three well armed guys dropped from the roof space when things had quietened down - probably wearing Iraqi uniforms I would check the roof spaces In WWII they just used flame throwers cite: my uncle ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2006, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-killed-al-zarqawi/359904/32 "2006-06-13T14:23:34Z")
I’m reminded of a line I vaguely recall from Breslin’s **Gang that Couldn’t Shoot Straight.** A gangster died of natural causes. His heart stopped beating - after someone snuck in while he was sleeping and plunged an icepick into it! ---
**Author:** ![Lee\_from\_Texas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Lee\_from\_Texas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lee_from_Texas)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2006, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-killed-al-zarqawi/359904/33 "2006-06-13T14:58:32Z")
> [@FRDE](#): > > @LeeFromTexas > It is ridiculous that they are making so much fuss about that village > > - everybody over the age of seven, and under the age of seventy would have known exactly what was going on when the bomb was planted. > > They would have known where the secondary ambush was. > > Probably three well armed guys dropped from the roof space when things had quietened down - probably wearing Iraqi uniforms > > I would check the roof spaces > > In WWII they just used flame throwers > cite: my uncle I’m not sure what village you’re talking about. Zarqawi’s or the Marine incident? I’ve only been home from Afghanistan for a month and haven’t really watched any news. If you’re talking about the Marine incident, then I absolutely believe it should be investigated and if the Marines killed innocent civilians, they should be punished. Zarqawi is a different case, however. There was no doubt that he’s an insurgent leader. That’s why I said he’s a special case. ---
**Author:** ![Lee\_from\_Texas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Lee\_from\_Texas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lee_from_Texas)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2006, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-killed-al-zarqawi/359904/34 "2006-06-13T15:13:07Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > So, if Zarqawi decided that you were a special case and needed to be beheaded, he would be justified? ☹ Have _I_ released videos encouraging Americans to kill Iraqis? Am _I_ the leader of an insurgent group dedicated to killing Iraqis? Have _I_ released videos of myself or my cohorts cutting the heads off innocent civilians? Have _I_ encouraged people around the world to kill Iraqis/Muslims/Arabs in the name of God? (or for any other reason?) Has a government offered a $25,000,000 reward for information leading to my capture or killing? Has a government dropped a pair of bombs on my house to kill me? If the answer to any of the above is yes, then by all means, cut my head off. :wally I said he’s a special case. I didn’t say he’s some god damned farmer plowing his field who deserves to die because a soldier got a “Dear John” letter. I didn’t say he’s some kid playing with his dog when an IED is detonated nearby who deserves to die because a soldier saw one of his buddies die. ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2006, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-killed-al-zarqawi/359904/35 "2006-06-13T16:18:26Z")
> [@FRDE](#): > > Personally I would not have expected him to be alive - with 500lb bombs > > - also if (as stated elsewhere) ground troops used Lasers to guide the bombs. There’s a big difference between hitting a house and hitting the person inside. Walls, doorways, rooms, corners, and pretty much anything between the blast and the person is going to soak up overpressure and stop blast fragments. Other rooms in the house might receive a shock wave, heat, and a big cloud of dust and smoke a moment later. Put simply, a bomb hitting the far eastern edge of a house will not necessarily kill everyone on the western edge of the house. An article I read listed the attack as comprising one laser-guided weapon followed by a GPS-guided bomb. GPS weapons are less accurate than laser-guided ones, so saying that either should have been a quick kill is putting it a little too strongly. There are any number of plausible ways that two bombs could hit a house and not kill one of the occupants instantly. Zarqawi was certainly lucky not to be killed on impact, but he was clearly in the blast radius, as evidenced by… well, his death. > [@](#): > > This is some sort of public relations exerciSe (happy Mark ?) designed to implicate the supposed finders with something … > That was either an operation that went right, or one that went wrong, in a peculiar way, perhaps the percussion (not explosive) bombs dropped a stone on his head. “Public relations exercise”? To implicate “the supposed finders” with _what_, please? You still have not stated in plain language (a) What you really feel happened (“this”, above) (b) Why you think your version of events is more plausible than the one we’re seeing on the news (“designed [by whom?] to implicate [who?] with [what?]”, above) (c) Any evidence other than sly sideways muttering for (a) and (b) above If you’re going to dance around the edges of a conspiracy theory, at least tell us which conspiracy. Was it Jordan faking a US attack to discredit Syria? Or was it Iran and Al Qaeda working together to eliminate Zarqawi, who was actually on the UK payroll? Perhaps it was Israel acting to quash Zarqawi before he could meet with the US to discuss a truce? Professor Plum in the Undisclosed Location with a Daisy Cutter? Spell it out, please. > [@](#): > > It is ridiculous that they are making so much fuss about that village > > - everybody over the age of seven, and under the age of seventy would have known exactly what was going on when the bomb was planted. They would have known where the secondary ambush was. In… Haditha? Good one, but totally off-topic. Also, just because the civilians know that US troops are being targeted, and are complicit in the attacks, does not give our soldiers the right to execute them on the spot. > [@](#): > > Probably three well armed guys dropped from the roof space when things had quietened down - probably wearing Iraqi uniforms What makes you say that it’s “probable” that there were 3 people, or that they were wearing Iraqi uniforms, or that they were on the roof? My kingdom for a cite. > [@](#): > > I would check the roof spaces. In WWII they just used flame throwers. Wait, who is supposed to be checking the roof spaces? US soldiers, or the Iraqis? Or was it US soldiers in Iraqi uniforms? Or insurgents in stolen Iraqi uniforms? Maybe _they’re_ the ones who killed Zarqawi. Seriously: if you think someone is hiding some deeper truth, and you have some evidence, then please let us in on the big secret. This is, after all, General Questions, where we provide solid evidence and cites for our theories. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2006, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-killed-al-zarqawi/359904/36 "2006-06-13T18:26:37Z")
Haditha. Roadside bomb, by a village, a bunch of enraged US soldiers legged it out of the damaged first vehicle, and follow up vehicles. Where would you rather be ? Inside a building or standing outside waiting for the grenade(s) to detonate. Kick the door and risk it, or stick in the open ? Insurgents don’t wear stolen Iraqi uniforms - they don’t steal them. That is the problem. It is not hard to work out where the secondary attack would have come from, the fact it did not happen indicates that they sloped away. As for three people, that is the minimum number to ensure that they stick around. Zarqawi was too valuable to kill - if he is dead, then it was an accident - if the BBC is right about 30 mins, then the helicopters must have been … Military intelligence is not an oxymoron, it just takes about three years to oust the dead wood. My view is that we can expect some peculiar events. Perhaps I’m wrong, but in 1979 I was saying we should have been helping the Russians in Afghanistan. It’s a funny old world. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2006, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-killed-al-zarqawi/359904/37 "2006-06-13T18:45:19Z")
Who killed al-Aarqawi? Why an’ what’s the reason for? ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2006, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-killed-al-zarqawi/359904/38 "2006-06-13T23:27:41Z")
> [@FRDE](#): > > @Samuel Clements (Mark Twain - or ‘watch it - shallow water’) > > You misunderstood, or are making a joke. Sorry. It was your spelling of “surprized” and “surprizing.” I thought you were continuing a discussion from another thread. I didn’t realize that you spell things with a “z” no matter the accepted spelling. ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-killed-al-zarqawi/359904/39 "2006-06-14T10:55:11Z")
FRDE, this is General Questions, not Rampant Speculation. You can posit unlikely situations in almost any of our other forums, but GQ is where we make clear statements of fact backed up by real evidence. A simple statement might be “the photo of al-Zarqawi was Photoshopped to remove a small, round head wound; here are links to the before and after photos. I speculate that the hidden wound is a bullet hole and it implies he was assassinated.” Really simple - assertion, evidence, _then_ speculation based on the evidence you present. > [@FRDE](#): > > Haditha. Roadside bomb, by a village […] Yes, I read the news too. But until you started mentioning Haditha, we were discussing the death of al-Zarqawi. > [@](#): > > Insurgents don’t wear stolen Iraqi uniforms - they don’t steal them. > That is the problem. No, the problem is that the insurgents do not want us in Iraq, and we do not want them in Iraq. We exchange bullets and other unpleasant communiqués over this dispute daily. _That_ is the problem. > [@](#): > > It is not hard to work out where the secondary attack would have come from, the fact it did not happen indicates that they sloped away. This sounds suspiciously like the joke about elephants painting their toenails and hiding in trees – we know it works because of the lack of evidence. You’re asserting that there _was_ a group of witnesses to Haditha, “wearing Iraqi uniforms”, but they ran off? Do you have any evidence for this extraordinary claim? I’m also still waiting for you to assert who it is that you think _was_ wearing Iraqi uniforms on the roof, and why they chose not to attack. I’ll set you up for free: pretend I’m an idiot. Spell it out for me in plain language. > [@](#): > > As for three people, that is the minimum number to ensure that they stick around. Huh. And I would have picked four, if I were just making up numbers. Three of whom? Do you have any evidence for this claim? > [@](#): > > Zarqawi was too valuable to kill > > - if he is dead, then it was an accident > - if the BBC is right about 30 mins, then the helicopters must have been … Please, please, please clarify your claim about helicopters, whose they were, and where they “must have been”. And once you get around to making a claim, do you have any evidence for it? > [@](#): > > Military intelligence is not an oxymoron, it just takes about three years to oust the dead wood. My view is that we can expect some peculiar events. Signs point to “yes”. Some “peculiar events” indeed. Maybe something weird will happen! ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-killed-al-zarqawi/359904/40 "2006-06-14T13:53:44Z")
@Sam & Jurph As you can work out, I’m pretty new on this board, and still getting a feel for how things work here. I’m not used to being regarded as a ‘troll’, so it took me some time to work out that you had me 'Mark’ed out as one. @Jurph, I see what you mean about rampant speculation. There is a distinct difference between ‘Opinion’, ‘View’ and ‘Fact’ My definitions are :- ‘Opinion’ - essentially value judgements, interesting, but … well blathering ‘View’ - interpretation of ‘Facts’ ‘Facts’ - things that one has read/seen/heard about that may or may not have happened My speciality is assembling a group of ‘Facts’, spotting the inconsistencies, and building a hypothesis - it is like assembling a jigsaw puzzle - if anything it is the inconsistencies that are interesting - not the missing bits, but the bits that don’t fit I suppose the nearest thing is pattern recognition. Clearly, that is inappropriate here, which is fair enough, ‘House Rules’ rule [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-killed-al-zarqawi/359904.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-killed-al-zarqawi/359904.md?page=3)