# What exactly qualifies as blackface? What forms are offensive and why? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 2, 2019, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848 "2019-02-02T18:34:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2019, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/181 "2019-02-04T21:36:42Z")
> [@typoink](#): > > The most common form is actually people posting reaction gifs or memes, especially of the “tough black woman giving side-eye” or “black rappers performing for a camera” variety. And, like, that can be fine. But there’s definitely a pattern I’ve started to see where some (white) folks have started using those as their go-to reactions and I can see a very good argument that it contributes a lot to reducing black people to a handful of white-approved characteristics. The parallel to minstrel shows where a few black characteristics were isolated, heightened, and played for laughs by white folks isn’t as much of a reach as I originally thought. Yep - if I never see another “Ain’t nobody got time for that!” meme post, it’ll be too soon. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2019, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/182 "2019-02-04T22:07:24Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You realise a movie with a giant magic snake is not exactly a period piece, right? Does it need to be to qualify for this bit of apprently overhyped terminology? How fictional does a movie need to be before it’s not “cultural appropriation” Especially if you’re dealing with the traditional folklore of a culture? To me it just seemed odd for a minute but no big deal. Thus is probably another example though where the Arthur stories have such a huge amount of representation that it’s no big deal. Where if we were dealing with a traditional native story doing something like that would be a big nono because it may well be the only exposure people ever get. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2019, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/183 "2019-02-04T22:15:38Z")
> [@typoink](#): > > As it got mentioned in the OP but mostly dropped in the thread, I want to throw out a few comments about “digital blackface.” When people first threw that term around in the past year or so, I thought it was goofy or knee-jerky, but I’ve started to see it a lot more. The problem is that it’s not a very good term for what it describes. > > It’s not about using a black avatar in a game or using black emojis – it’s about using those things as a way to play with stereotypes. It’s not uncommon to see “edgy” white teens playing black avatars in games and using it as an opportunity to do their best impression of “ebonics” or throw around racial slurs. > > The most common form is actually people posting reaction gifs or memes, especially of the “tough black woman giving side-eye” or “black rappers performing for a camera” variety. And, like, that can be fine. But there’s definitely a pattern I’ve started to see where some (white) folks have started using those as their go-to reactions and I can see a very good argument that it contributes a lot to reducing black people to a handful of white-approved characteristics. The parallel to minstrel shows where a few black characteristics were isolated, heightened, and played for laughs by white folks isn’t as much of a reach as I originally thought. I rarely if ever use memes but I could see your angle on that. Are they just generic black people? Or are they like stars known for the exaggerated trait? And do you mean that some have an overabundance of black go tos for negative traits? Like they just don’t even bother to mix it up? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2019, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/184 "2019-02-04T22:24:21Z")
I grew up almost at the same as the Virginia governor. Dressing in costume included darkening the skin for a character like Michael Jackson. It wasn’t a concern then. What was a concern is blackface Minstrel entertainment. They included racial stereotypical humor, exaggerated black facial features and minstrel songs. This was certainly offensive in 1980 and people my age knew it. There’s no comparison in putting on a MJ costume and singing Billy Jean and a minstrel entertainer like this … Everything about this guy is racially exaggerated. [https://goo.gl/images/b4GHAV](https://goo.gl/images/b4GHAV) ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2019, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/185 "2019-02-04T22:57:17Z")
I really have thank monstro here too. I’m not quite in agreement on some of the ahistorical parts of what he’/ she? said but the vast , vast , vast majority of his points were reasonable, clear explanations including the way to approach it with my son. That gave me a great way of explaining to him why he can’t brown up without making it sound like it’s not ok to be black or not ok to idolize a black person or character. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2019, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/186 "2019-02-04T23:05:22Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Does it need to be to qualify for this bit > of apprently overhyped terminology? You were the one who called it a “medeival movies”[sic] which kind of implies a period piece, not the inaccurate-to-history mess that was KALotS. And yes, in a fantasy piece, anything goes. Not that POC were strangers to medieval Europe, you understand. > [@](#): > > How fictional does a movie need to be before it’s not “cultural appropriation” It wouldn’t be “cultural appropriation” even if it claimed to be a recreation of Agincourt with an all-Black cast, because t_hat’s not what cultural appropriation is._ > [@](#): > > Especially if you’re dealing with the traditional folklore of a culture? The traditional Arthurian romances featured several POC knights, as I’ve shown. > [@](#): > > Where if we were dealing with a traditional native story doing something like that would be a big nono because it may well be the only exposure people ever get. The difference between the two should be screamingly obvious. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/187 "2019-02-05T00:32:39Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > If I were asked to describe anyone, I’d absolutely put their race in there. > > MJ is a basketball player, who is tall, bald, black guy with a warm smile. > As opposed to Bruce Willis who is an actor , tall bald, white guy, who’s smiles make you uneasy. > > And yeah, I guarantee if your asking people if they’ve seen me…short of a picture whites gonna be in that description. I was told about ten years ago that such descriptions should be shied away from. I have been in situations where I walk into a room and ask who John Smith is. Someone will point to two people standing together talking, one black and one white, and they will describe John as the taller guy, or the guy with the blue blazer, or the one on the right (no their right) and do everything except to make the obvious distinction of saying the white guy or the black guy, even though that would immediately clarify things. That’s how absurd things have gotten. There is nothing demeaning about describing a person. American Dad lampooned the shit out of this trope in an episode where Stan does everything to try to describe the white girl and finally says that she is the one where if you were handing out sunscreen you would give it to her first. These “rules” make no sense other than to further the divisions between the races, increase hostility, and to keep those who pretend to be offended in power. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/188 "2019-02-05T00:33:26Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > This is the most compelling, relatable explanation I’ve read on this subject; thank you. I’ve always understood why what we usually think of as blackface is abhorrent but I still wasn’t quite on board with vilifying people who are using it to portray a particular person- the first thing that came to mind is Julianne Hough as Suzanne from Orange is the New Black. Now I get it. I still think many people are doing or defending it out of honest ignorance but if I can change my view, so possibly can they. > > Would you perhaps consider going on tour?😛 I will go on tour as long as I can go dressed as David Bowie. 🙂 Thanks for the compliments, everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/189 "2019-02-05T00:37:37Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Yeah, “disrespect for Michael Jackson” wasn’t the problem that people had with that skit. ([There is a GD thread about it](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=535238).) No, whiteface wasn’t the problem Americans had with the skit. It was what Australians felt deserved an apology. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/190 "2019-02-05T04:35:04Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I will go on tour as long as I can go dressed as David Bowie. Just don’t pad your pants because people shouldn’t be defined by [their physical characteristics](https://m.facebook.com/DavidBowiesCrotchInLabyrinth/). ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/191 "2019-02-05T05:53:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Not at all. Because there were [Black](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriaen) and other [POC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palamedes_(Arthurian_legend)) Knights in period fiction. Actually, looks like you focused on the word black there Moorish people were Muslims in Spain and italy not Africans as it would imply in our context. Palamedes would have been Arab as well. Actually reminds me of something that really strikes me odd, seems like a lot of the same people who go around quoting Bible verses are the same ones who would have a terrible attitude towards the people they’re quoting because they’re Arab and all the Bible movies seem to never include an Arab. As far as the native movie thing goes no i don’t see some big objective difference between legend of the sword and if I were to do the legend of Unktomi tanka ( giant magic spider and a brave) with white people or black people instead of natives. Except that Arthurian legends have so much representation that you could do it however the hell you want and nobody is gonna care. Everybody has their own twist and the stories themselves aren’t even consistent. So whatever , no need to make up all your own characters to do a fantasy medeival type film. The only reason I would say doing Unktomi you would want to stick with natives is the lack of representation. I mean there were white braves as far back as 500 years ago but why select the minority there to represent a traditional native story that hardly anyone has heard of. Though I bear in mind my understanding is pretty much limited to what I’ve read in this thread and a few blogs as these things go. ---
**Author:** ![BenedictusXIV](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b19c9b/32.png) [@BenedictusXIV](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BenedictusXIV)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/192 "2019-02-05T09:34:12Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > My 5 year old is strangely racist. I had more or less the same thing happen. Strange racist remarks including flat out “I don’t like black people”. It was embarrassing and weird, because until then one of his black uncles was his big hero and roll model. I figured it was something he picked up in school. We live in a very, very white rural area and in general people here aren’t too crazy about strangers (my family and I included). I further ignored it, because that is how I handle most every situation with my kids and it turns out to be a great parenting tool. By now he is 8 and I think he is over it. May have helped that I put him in another school and that I brought him to the boxing gym where every kid of color from the whole wide area trains. He’s also developing a strange fascination for blues music (strange for his age), which might put things in the proper perspective. ---
**Author:** ![BenedictusXIV](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b19c9b/32.png) [@BenedictusXIV](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BenedictusXIV)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/193 "2019-02-05T10:08:58Z")
I live in the Netherlands and they have a remarkable blackface tradition here surrounding the celebration of St. Nicholas in December. This Santa-type character is assisted not by elves, but by blackface acrobats called “Zwarte Piet” (Black Pete). Since a few years part of the black community is protesting this tradition, which leads to totally incomprehensible discussions in newspapers, television and public debate. Promotors of either side of the debate receive death threats and protestors require police protection. The country seems on the verge of civil war when before Christmas the whole thing dies down and is forgotten about for another year. I think it is inevitable that they move away from the blackface thing. The local PBS, that appears to be in charge of broadcasting everything related to the event, has already started to introduce White Petes (or actually various gradations ranging from black to white). It’s kind of an interesting spectacle. The outrage with the traditionalists (roughly half the country) is remarkable. I find it hard to believe that these are all racist people. I suspect that they are mostly conservatives who feel threatened by a rapidly changing society and made this their last stand. Come to think of it, this may well be the Dutch border wall. (but let’s not go there). ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/194 "2019-02-05T10:43:50Z")
My Netherlands experience: In high school, a bunch of us kids did a tour of Europe,and Amsterdam was one of the cities we visited. We were a performing arts school, so naturally we performed (string orchestra and a performing troupe that did singing and dancing numbers). We were based in Atlanta, GA, so a lot of us were melanistic. Being naive teenagers, we didn’t know that this made us unusual in any way. After our performance at the international school in Amsterdam, a little white girl from the school came up to one of us back stage and demanded that she get out of her make-up. At first, we were all very confused. And then she pointed to my schoolmate’s skin and we realized she thought she–and no doubt most of us–were wearing brown make-up. My schoolmate’s immediate reaction was to clapback at the little girl, which in retrospect wasn’t the kindest response. But it was kind of hilarious. We experienced a couple of other “racially weird” incidents while we were there. But I liked Amsterdam other than that. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/195 "2019-02-05T12:41:43Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > My Netherlands experience: > > In high school, a bunch of us kids did a tour of Europe,and Amsterdam was one of the cities we visited. We were a performing arts school, so naturally we performed (string orchestra and a performing troupe that did singing and dancing numbers). We were based in Atlanta, GA, so a lot of us were melanistic. Being naive teenagers, we didn’t know that this made us unusual in any way. > > After our performance at the international school in Amsterdam, a little white girl from the school came up to one of us back stage and demanded that she get out of her make-up. At first, we were all very confused. And then she pointed to my schoolmate’s skin and we realized she thought she–and no doubt most of us–were wearing brown make-up. My schoolmate’s immediate reaction was to clapback at the little girl, which in retrospect wasn’t the kindest response. But it was kind of hilarious. We experienced a couple of other “racially weird” incidents while we were there. But I liked Amsterdam other than that. Oy. She must have been \*really \*young or \*really \*sheltered:smack: BTW, can we agree that it’s acceptable, nay, _compulsory_, for any persons of any color to put on orange face when dressing as Mr. Trump? ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/196 "2019-02-05T13:01:58Z")
> [@BenedictusXIV](#): > > I had more or less the same thing happen. Strange racist remarks including flat out “I don’t like black people”. > > It was embarrassing and weird, because until then one of his black uncles was his big hero and roll model. > I figured it was something he picked up in school. We live in a very, very white rural area and in general people here aren’t too crazy about strangers (my family and I included). > I further ignored it, because that is how I handle most every situation with my kids and it turns out to be a great parenting tool. > > By now he is 8 and I think he is over it. May have helped that I put him in another school and that I brought him to the boxing gym where every kid of color from the whole wide area trains. > He’s also developing a strange fascination for blues music (strange for his age), which might put things in the proper perspective. I’m glad I’m not the only one. His brother never did anything like that so we’ve been puzzling over it. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/197 "2019-02-05T13:04:17Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > Oy. She must have been \*really \*young or \*really \*sheltered:smack: > > BTW, can we agree that it’s acceptable, nay, _compulsory_, for any persons of any color to put on orange face when dressing as Mr. Trump? I know I wouldn’t care a bit. Though if we’re promoting a similar standard, from the responses here it seems like a mask would be the way to go? ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/198 "2019-02-05T13:11:58Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > My Netherlands experience: > > In high school, a bunch of us kids did a tour of Europe,and Amsterdam was one of the cities we visited. We were a performing arts school, so naturally we performed (string orchestra and a performing troupe that did singing and dancing numbers). We were based in Atlanta, GA, so a lot of us were melanistic. Being naive teenagers, we didn’t know that this made us unusual in any way. > > After our performance at the international school in Amsterdam, a little white girl from the school came up to one of us back stage and demanded that she get out of her make-up. At first, we were all very confused. And then she pointed to my schoolmate’s skin and we realized she thought she–and no doubt most of us–were wearing brown make-up. My schoolmate’s immediate reaction was to clapback at the little girl, which in retrospect wasn’t the kindest response. But it was kind of hilarious. We experienced a couple of other “racially weird” incidents while we were there. But I liked Amsterdam other than that. I’ve seen several 2 year olds assume something along those lines the first time they notice a black person up close. A grocery store clerk once noticed my cousin at about 2 giving her a strange look and knew immediately. She responded by showing her that was her color and invited her to touch her hand saying go ahead, it won’t rub off. My cousin did and then was perfectly comfortable. Kids are really wild. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/199 "2019-02-05T13:19:47Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > I’ve seen several 2 year olds assume something along those lines the first time they notice a black person up close. > > A grocery store clerk once noticed my cousin at about 2 giving her a strange look and knew immediately. She responded by showing her that was her color and invited her to touch her hand saying go ahead, it won’t rub off. My cousin did and then was perfectly comfortable. > > Kids are really wild. When I was a kid, my very blonde best friend’s very blonde mother loved to tell the story of said friend referring to the first black man she saw as “a chocolate man”. I wasn’t sure if my friend was stupid or the mother was a liar. Apologies to both of them, wherever they are. ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/200 "2019-02-05T14:46:09Z")
I think all of the questions, concerns and confusion over blackface makes it abundantly clear that white culture values the color of one’s skin much more than anyone is comfortable admitting. There are people in this thread who seem to imply that they cannot judge a cosplayer by the content of their character until after they have judged them by the color of their skin. If a black person cannot avoid being judged by the color of their skin in a room full of people playing dress up and make believe then what expectation of fairness and equality does the black doctor/lawyer/accountant/engineer ever hope to have in the real world? It feels like we aren’t even allowed to pretend we are seen as equals. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848.md?page=11)