# What exactly qualifies as blackface? What forms are offensive and why? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 2, 2019, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848 "2019-02-02T18:34:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![BenedictusXIV](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b19c9b/32.png) [@BenedictusXIV](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BenedictusXIV)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/201 "2019-02-05T15:50:45Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > It feels like we aren’t even allowed to pretend we are seen as equals. No, pretending is not allowed. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/202 "2019-02-05T16:50:36Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Moorish people were Muslims in Spain and italy not Africans as it would imply in our context. Where do you think they came from? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/203 "2019-02-05T17:00:22Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > There are people in this thread who seem to imply that they cannot judge a cosplayer by the content of their character until after they have judged them by the color of their skin. If a black person cannot avoid being judged by the color of their skin in a room full of people playing dress up and make believe then what expectation of fairness and equality does the black doctor/lawyer/accountant/engineer ever hope to have in the real world? > > It feels like we aren’t even allowed to pretend we are seen as equals. I am just saying that it is silly to try to make the claim that trying to look like someone does not involve trying to look like someone. And I’ll believe that cosplay is about “content of character” the moment you show me a photo of someone successfully cosplaying as Spiderman _in their street clothes_ by projecting love for their aunt, guilt about their uncle’s death, and worry about having their secret identuty found out. And this isn’t black specific–a skinny teenage Japanese girl will always make a more convincing Sailor Moon than a 300 pound 30-year-old white woman no matter how much they love the character and how much time and effort they put into making similar clothes. A tiny, athletic white girl [will always make a more convincing Peggy Fleming than a middle-aged Chinese man](https://youtube.com/watch?v=D24TfNSrGw0). A short hairy white guy isn’t a convincing Storm and a tall slender black woman isn’t a convincing Wolverine. This isn’t racism, this is having eyes that function. I have no problem with a black doctor, just as long as the black doctor doesn’t think he is pulling off looking like Dougie Houser, MD. by wearing a white coat and name-dropping Vinnie and Wanda. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/204 "2019-02-05T17:07:54Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > I think all of the questions, concerns and confusion over blackface makes it abundantly clear that white culture values the color of one’s skin much more than anyone is comfortable admitting. > There are people in this thread who seem to imply that they cannot judge a cosplayer by the content of their character until after they have judged them by the color of their skin. If a black person cannot avoid being judged by the color of their skin in a room full of people playing dress up and make believe then what expectation of fairness and equality does the black doctor/lawyer/accountant/engineer ever hope to have in the real world? > > It feels like we aren’t even allowed to pretend we are seen as equals. Welcome to the Dope, and might I say, excellent post. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/205 "2019-02-05T17:10:42Z")
[QUOTE=Darren Garrison;21471443And I’ll believe that cosplay is about “content of character” the moment you show me a photo of someone successfully cosplaying as Spiderman _in their street clothes_ by projecting love for their aunt, guilt about their uncle’s death, and worry about having their secret identuty found out…[/QUOTE] I’ll believe that cosplay is about accuracy once dressing up like Superman lets me leap over tall buildings. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/206 "2019-02-05T17:30:13Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I am just saying that it is silly to try to make the claim that trying to look like someone does not involve trying to look like someone. And I’ll believe that cosplay is about “content of character” the moment you show me a photo of someone successfully cosplaying as Spiderman _in their street clothes_ by projecting love for their aunt, guilt about their uncle’s death, and worry about having their secret identuty found out. And this isn’t black specific–a skinny teenage Japanese girl will always make a more convincing Sailor Moon than a 300 pound 30-year-old white woman no matter how much they love the character and how much time and effort they put into making similar clothes. A tiny, athletic white girl [will always make a more convincing Peggy Fleming than a middle-aged Chinese man](https://youtube.com/watch?v=D24TfNSrGw0). A short hairy white guy isn’t a convincing Storm and a tall slender black woman isn’t a convincing Wolverine. This isn’t racism, this is having eyes that function. I have no problem with a black doctor, just as long as the black doctor doesn’t think he is pulling off looking like Dougie Houser, MD. by wearing a white coat and name-dropping Vinnie and Wanda. Who cares if the race, gender, or body type match the character? People dress up in cosplay because they find it fun, not to try and trick you into thinking that Ripley is really walking around the convention center. Part of that can also be reinterpreting characters to the performers’ own identity or taste. A gender swapped Firefly, or all black ST:TNG? Great, it brings the performers joy, and me, too… I wish we lived in a world where race and prejudice were such a non-issue that if a white guy wanted to dress as Black Panther he could wear black face, and it would mean nothing more than that he had to spend 30 minutes doing his makeup. We don’t live in that world, so, don’t do that. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/207 "2019-02-05T17:30:35Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > I think all of the questions, concerns and confusion over blackface makes it abundantly clear that white culture values the color of one’s skin much more than anyone is comfortable admitting. What on earth is “white culture”? I’m not familiar with the concept. ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/208 "2019-02-05T18:33:40Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Welcome to the Dope, and might I say, excellent post. Thanks! Looong time lurker, first time Doper so I’m pretty excited to see if I can make a worthwhile contribution ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/209 "2019-02-05T18:54:46Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > What on earth is “white culture”? I’m not familiar with the concept. Culture means a lot of different things in a lot of different instances. But instead of going down that semantic rabbit hole I will narrow the focus to say that in this particular instance I am referring to the norms for how white people interact and relate to other people. You often hear people parrot the MLK quote about we should not be judged by the color of our skin but by the content of our character. All of this confusion over blackface seems to offer concrete proof that at there is a significant number of white people who feel the content of one’s character cannot be divorced from the color of one’s skin. Not even when you’re playing dress up and make believe… **Disclaimer** I think cosplay is cool despite me characterizing it as playing dress up make believe. ---
**Author:** ![mistymage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mistymage/32/459_2.png) [@mistymage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mistymage)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/210 "2019-02-05T19:05:04Z")
I dare anyone to go up to Jason Momoa and tell him he didn’t play a convincing Aquaman. No blond hair, blue eyes or fair skin and a couple inches taller than the cartoons comics portray Aquaman. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/211 "2019-02-05T19:07:50Z")
> [@mistymage](#): > > I dare anyone to go up to Jason Momoa and tell him he didn’t play a convincing Aquaman. No blond hair, blue eyes or fair skin and a couple inches taller than the cartoons comics portray Aquaman. I hated that movie, and I still wouldn’t do that. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/212 "2019-02-05T19:25:13Z")
What _isn’t_ blackface is Mary Poppins with soot on her face.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/213 "2019-02-05T19:32:25Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I am just saying that it is silly to try to make the claim that trying to look like someone does not involve trying to look like someone. [The definition of cosplay](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cosplay): “the activity or practice of dressing up as a character from a work of fiction (such as a comic book, video game, or television show)” Operative words here are “dressing up”. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/214 "2019-02-05T19:34:02Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I’ll believe that cosplay is about accuracy once dressing up like Superman lets me leap over tall buildings. :rolleyes: “Cape does not allow user to fly”. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/215 "2019-02-05T19:42:02Z")
> [@mistymage](#): > > I dare anyone to go up to Jason Momoa and tell him he didn’t play a convincing Aquaman. No blond hair, blue eyes or fair skin and a couple inches taller than the cartoons comics portray Aquaman. He’s actually quite on point to be playing Sub-Mariner, however, which I find confusing since Aquaman is a completely different character–it’s like they smooshed the two together at some point. Guess having two guys who talk to fish is kinda overkill. I was in the SCA back into the '80s and although my primary persona was female and Tudor era I occasionally took on a different persona, which was a male Viking. Nobody batted an eye, which was pretty par for the course in the SCA. I knew people with Japanese personas who were about as not-Asian as it’s possible to get, women with male personas and vice versa and black Norsemen. Being an asshole and expecting everyone’s gender and skin tones to match their persona was frowned on even then and it’s nice to see the rest of America finally catching up. What you look like to others is much less important than what you perceive yourself to be. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/216 "2019-02-05T21:12:06Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > Culture means a lot of different things in a lot of different instances. But instead of going down that semantic rabbit hole I will narrow the focus to say that in this particular instance I am referring to the norms for how white people interact and relate to other people. > > You often hear people parrot the MLK quote about we should not be judged by the color of our skin but by the content of our character. All of this confusion over blackface seems to offer concrete proof that at there is a significant number of white people who feel the content of one’s character cannot be divorced from the color of one’s skin. Not even when you’re playing dress up and make believe… > > **Disclaimer** > I think cosplay is cool despite me characterizing it as playing dress up make believe. Respectfully, I think you are terribly overestimating what it means to dress up in a costume. If I dress up like John Travolta in Pulp Fiction, I don’t need skin makeup. I am white, he is white. That part is good. If I am Samuel L. Jackson, then I am white, but he and his character are black. I don’t look like that. As part of any costume is an attempt to look like the character, I would try (were it not for the fall out) to make my skin look black. The same way in which if I already had a jerry curl, I wouldn’t need to change my hair, but if I was playing Travolta, I would. None of this has anything to do with character of a person. Samuel L. Jackson and John Travolta’s characters in Pulp Fiction were both terrible. The dress up part has absolutely nothing to do with black/white, superior/inferior etc. I’m not sure how it is even remotely related to this thread and is frankly over the top. I can earnestly believe in racial equality yet when playing dress up try to look like the character I am playing. All your position does, as mentioned by Littleman upthread, is that if me and my black friend are doing Pulp Fiction costumes is that he must be Jackson and I must be Travolta. That has real world racial consequences instead of pretend ones. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/217 "2019-02-05T21:21:44Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Respectfully, I think you are terribly overestimating what it means to dress up in a costume. If I dress up like John Travolta in Pulp Fiction, I don’t need skin makeup. I am white, he is white. That part is good. Sure > [@](#): > > If I am Samuel L. Jackson, then I am white, but he and his character are black. I don’t look like that. As part of any costume is an attempt to look like the character, I would try (were it not for the fall out) to make my skin look black. So, being black is the defining characteristic of Samuel L Jackson? > [@](#): > > The same way in which if I already had a jerry curl, I wouldn’t need to change my hair, but if I was playing Travolta, I would. > > None of this has anything to do with character of a person. Samuel L. Jackson and John Travolta’s characters in Pulp Fiction were both terrible. The dress up part has absolutely nothing to do with black/white, superior/inferior etc. > > I’m not sure how it is even remotely related to this thread and is frankly over the top. I can earnestly believe in racial equality yet when playing dress up try to look like the character I am playing. All your position does, as mentioned by Littleman upthread, is that if me and my black friend are doing Pulp Fiction costumes is that he must be Jackson and I must be Travolta. That has real world racial consequences instead of pretend ones. You have that entirely backwards. BeagleJesus explicitly said that it is fine that you be Jackson, and your friend be Travolta, no makeup necessary. And, that is also what everyone else in this thread has been telling you, BeagleJesus just articulated it better than anyone else had. It is you, getting hung up on “inaccurate” skin color that would be why you must be travolta. And getting hung up on skin color absolutely has real world racial consequences rather than pretend one. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/218 "2019-02-05T21:25:00Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Respectfully, I think you are terribly overestimating what it means to dress up in a costume. If I dress up like John Travolta in Pulp Fiction, I don’t need skin makeup. I am white, he is white. That part is good. > > If I am Samuel L. Jackson, then I am white, but he and his character are black. I don’t look like that. As part of any costume is an attempt to look like the character, I would try (were it not for the fall out) to make my skin look black. > > The same way in which if I already had a jerry curl, I wouldn’t need to change my hair, but if I was playing Travolta, I would. > > None of this has anything to do with character of a person. Samuel L. Jackson and John Travolta’s characters in Pulp Fiction were both terrible. The dress up part has absolutely nothing to do with black/white, superior/inferior etc. > > I’m not sure how it is even remotely related to this thread and is frankly over the top. I can earnestly believe in racial equality yet when playing dress up try to look like the character I am playing. All your position does, as mentioned by Littleman upthread, is that if me and my black friend are doing Pulp Fiction costumes is that he must be Jackson and I must be Travolta. That has real world racial consequences instead of pretend ones. Jules and Vincent both have very distinctive hairstyles/facial hair. It’s pretty clear which is which, regardless of skin color. If all you’re doing is putting on a suit and being white, you won’t look like Vincent, you’ll look like a white guy in a suit. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/219 "2019-02-05T21:33:31Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > When I was a kid, my very blonde best friend’s very blonde mother loved to tell the story of said friend referring to the first black man she saw as “a chocolate man”. I wasn’t sure if my friend was stupid or the mother was a liar. Apologies to both of them, wherever they are. How old was she at the time? If she was a little kid, it’s a perfectly fine description. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2019, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/220 "2019-02-05T21:49:36Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, being black is the defining characteristic of Samuel L Jackson? > You have that entirely backwards. BeagleJesus explicitly said that it is fine that you be Jackson, and your friend be Travolta, no makeup necessary. And, that is also what everyone else in this thread has been telling you, BeagleJesus just articulated it better than anyone else had. > > It is you, getting hung up on “inaccurate” skin color that would be why you must be travolta. And getting hung up on skin color absolutely has real world racial consequences rather than pretend one. No! It is “a” part of the physical characteristic of Jackson. It does not define him anymore than Travolta’s whiteness defines him. The suit, the gun, the murder likewise do not define Jackson nor Travolta. If I am white and dressing up as Jackson, in order to look like him, my skin should look black. Nothing nefarious behind that. Sure, my black friend could be Travolta and I could be Jackson with no skin makeup and the world would not end, but what’s wrong with a few laughs if he puts on white makeup and I put on black makeup? Which race are we offending? > [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Jules and Vincent both have very distinctive hairstyles/facial hair. It’s pretty clear which is which, regardless of skin color. If all you’re doing is putting on a suit and being white, you won’t look like Vincent, you’ll look like a white guy in a suit. This has been brought up before. Most costumes are ridiculous. You and monstro seem to be suggesting that only if the costumes are done well are they okay. I know that is not what you are suggesting, but I don’t understand the grand picture here of why, because the costumes won’t be perfect anyways, that skin color now becomes off limits. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848.md?page=12)