# What exactly qualifies as blackface? What forms are offensive and why? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 2, 2019, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848 "2019-02-02T18:34:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/261 "2019-02-06T18:25:59Z")
So, is wearing blackface to a party once when you are a teenager so bad that [it is better to be governed by a Republican](https://www.rawstory.com/2019/02/virginia-dem-attorney-general-admits-wearing-blackface-leaving-republican-poised-become-governor/)? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/262 "2019-02-06T18:56:20Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > After several centuries during which Europeans first invented the concept of whiteness and then used it as a weapon to visit hell on earth against non-whites as a group, and in a current reality in which nonwhiteness is still a factor in systematic physical and non-physical violence throughout western societies, this is an irresponsible approach. Irrelevant to any point I’m making. > [@](#): > > You simply want people to ignore the realities of cultural history and their daily lives to give you personally the benefit of the doubt. It’s spiteful of you to even ask for it. Judge people on intent and each case on its merits. That is the only thing that matters. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/263 "2019-02-06T18:58:45Z")
> [@typoink](#): > > is it POSSIBLE to mitigate that? Arguably. Tropic Thunder and It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia both arguably “pulled it off,” but only by featuring it in a context of very carefully highlighting just how ill-advised and taboo it is. And both still did upset some people. If you feel like you have a performance with the same level of nuance, care, and awareness…well, go for it. But, based on your posts here, I really, really don’t believe you do. So in other words, I’m right. I said. > [@](#): > > It matters how it is done and why it is done Which you have just agreed with. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/264 "2019-02-06T19:02:26Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Irrelevant to any point I’m making. > > Judge people on intent and each case on its merits. That is the only thing that matters. If what you mean by intent is to read their minds or to take as given what they claim post how, then no, that’s not only what matters. Their intent is colored by what we know about our history and the world we live in every day. They don’t get to be treated like they were born yesterday. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/265 "2019-02-06T19:14:56Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > If what you mean by intent is to read their minds or to take as given what they claim post how, then no, that’s not only what matters. You start from an assumption that no malice is intended and work from there. Did you see the Harry Enfiield clip I posted? You are happy to accept purely benign intent there yes? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/266 "2019-02-06T19:25:49Z")
> [@typoink](#): > > It has been repeatedly explained to you that doing so in public WILL have the consequence of upsetting, offending, and angering people and reminding them of systematic oppression of people of color throughout the western world. > > With that knowledge, ANY “intent” you have is now marred by the fact that you’ve willingly privileged YOUR desires over the feelings of others. You don’t now get to choose to pretend you don’t know that. If you darken your skin to emulate the complexion of a person of color, you ARE now intentionally offending people. You are making a choice to cause upset or even remove the sense of safety for people of color. > > At best, you CAN make an argument that an IGNORANT person unaware of the history and connotations COULD paint their skin and be relatively blameless UNTIL the context is explained to them. You do NOT have the luxury of claiming that same ignorance. You don’t even NEED to understand WHY it upsets people – you merely need to be aware that it will. And you are. > > If you paint your skin to emulate another ethnicity, you are now acting with corrupt intent… This line of argument can be extended to cover literally any aspect of life that has the potential to cause offence to anyone. i.e. absolutely everything. It ends up at the absurd conclusion that knowingly doing _anything_ that might cause offence, regardless of _specific_ intent, means you are now acting with \*corrupt \*intent. Utter nonsense. Such a line of thought ends artistic expression and free speech. By the same rationale I should no longer criticise the Catholic Church or Donald Trump because of the offence it’ll cause to the acolytes of both. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/267 "2019-02-06T19:27:23Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > You start from an assumption that no malice is intended and work from there. Did you see the Harry Enfiield clip I posted? You are happy to accept purely benign intent there yes? Is that how you approach all things? 95% of the tme, using blackface is intended to be harmful and mocking. You expect people to automatically give the benefit of the doubt that anytime they see anyone in blackface, that it is really that 5% of the time that it is actually sincere? That’s not going to happen. No matter how much you stamp your feet and screw your eyes, you are not going to convince the entire world to “just give blackface a chance.” But, hey, whatever you want, no one is going to stop you. You can dress up in any fashion that you desire. But you _will_ be judged for it, and unless you manage to be in the 5%, and convince people that you are in that 5%, you will be judged harshly. Even if you really are in that 5%, there will still be those who still don’t think that it was appropriate. you want to argue that you should have the freedom to color your skin, well, you do, you can do it. You also want to argue that others should not have the freedom to criticize you for it, and well, they do, they can do it. What do you propose is done to prevent anyone from getting the wrong idea about the intent behind your blackface? Should we have a PSA? Should we pass laws? How should we go about preventing you from receiving any criticism? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/268 "2019-02-06T19:29:53Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > This line of argument can be extended to cover literally any aspect of life that has the potential to cause offence to anyone. > > i.e. absolutely everything. > > It ends up at the absurd conclusion that knowingly doing _anything_ that might cause offence, regardless of _specific_ intent, means you are now acting with \*corrupt \*intent. > > Utter nonsense. Such a line of thought ends artistic expression and free speech. By the same rationale I should no longer criticise the Catholic Church or Donald Trump because of the offence it’ll cause to the acolytes of both. Well, yeah, that’s just basic. If something is offensive, then if you know that it is offense, then doing it anyway is being intentionally offensive. That would be the case for anything that people find to be offensive. If you don’t mind being offensive, then knock yourself out. Personally I don’t really care if I offend Trump supporters, so I have no problem with criticizing trump. In the same way, if you have no problem offending pretty much everyone, then you should have no problem wearing blackface. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/269 "2019-02-06T19:37:47Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Is that how you approach all things? yes, pretty much, seems to work pretty well. > [@](#): > > 95% of the tme, using blackface is intended to be harmful and mocking. is it? In my experience the use of it is vanishingly rare and the times when it happens (such as in the clip that I linked to) the intent is cleary not to harm or to mock. YMMV ---
**Author:** ![typoink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/270 "2019-02-06T19:46:25Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > This line of argument can be extended to cover literally any aspect of life that has the potential to cause offence to anyone. > > i.e. absolutely everything. > > It ends up at the absurd conclusion that knowingly doing _anything_ that might cause offence, regardless of _specific_ intent, means you are now acting with \*corrupt \*intent. > > Utter nonsense. Such a line of thought ends artistic expression and free speech. By the same rationale I should no longer criticise the Catholic Church or Donald Trump because of the offence it’ll cause to the acolytes of both. This is precisely why I previously stated I didn’t believe you had the understanding or nuance needed to “pull off” painting your face. Your lack of ability to understand a specific case without running off to a “slippery slope” argument shows you do not seem to understand the significance of the scenario you’re toying with. Calculating the “math” of how much you will offend vs. how desperately you need to take a particular action CAN be challenging. This, however, is not such a case. There is a very, very minimal upside and a well-documented downside. Your invocation of criticizing political opponents is an interesting point, though. When you do so, I would ABSOLUTELY state that part of your intent MUST be to cause adherents of opposing viewpoints discomfort. And that is generally a decision people make because they feel that such discomfort is warranted if not necessary. So, again, your decision to paint your face is a decision to knowingly cause black people who see you to have to question their standing and their safety. If you really think “making your costume look slightly more believable” is worth it, you’re allowed to make that decision. But you DON’T get to pretend that’s not the decision you’re making, and you certainly don’t get to act shocked by the negative reaction you would receive. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/271 "2019-02-06T20:10:09Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > You start from an assumption that no malice is intended and work from there. I’m sorry, no. You start from the context of the world you live in, in which blackface has an extensive and saturated history of mocking and demeaning a group of people as a tool to keep them in a repressed position in society, a position that after half a millennium _is still not equal_. And race-based mockery and intimidation is a practice that echoes even today in schoolyards and watering holes and sporting venues. It may hopefully be in a general decline, but we know that there’s an upswing in racially abusive behavior triggered by something as simple as the Trump election and presidency. So, white supremacy is alive and well in this country, and blackface has a firm position in the toolkit of white supremacy. You don’t get to pretend you have fallen out of the sky to get any benefit of the doubt on that count. And even if you think you are pure of heart, deciding to go ahead with it in the face of the history of white supremacy, institutional racism, and the part that blackface plays in it, means you have chosen to join yourself to that history. > [@](#): > > Did you see the Harry Enfiield clip I posted? You are happy to accept purely benign intent there yes? No. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/272 "2019-02-06T20:26:42Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > yes, pretty much, seems to work pretty well. then when people criticize you for wearing blackface, then you should start from the assumption that no malice is intended and work from there. > [@](#): > > is it? In my experience the use of it is vanishingly rare and the times when it happens (such as in the clip that I linked to) the intent is cleary not to harm or to mock. > > YMMV I see that you are from england, so you may not have the same history as the US. In your experience, it may be vanishingly rare, but in the US experience, not so much. It used to be much, much, much more common, and is is clearly to mock. The reason that it is vanishingly rare these days is because it is something that people understand is offensive, and they don’t feel that their need to get a skin tone just right overrides other people’s desire to not be mocked. So, if blackface is accepted in England, then go nuts, use all the colors you want and rejoice in your freedom to do so. Just take a care if you come over here, as our mileage does in fact vary. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/273 "2019-02-06T21:03:32Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I see that you are from england, so you may not have the same history as the US. That doesn’t mean they have [_no_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_and_White_Minstrel_Show) [history](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golliwog) with the concept. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/274 "2019-02-06T21:56:18Z")
> [@typoink](#): > > Your invocation of criticizing political opponents is an interesting point, though. When you do so, I would ABSOLUTELY state that part of your intent MUST be to cause adherents of opposing viewpoints discomfort. And that is generally a decision people make because they feel that such discomfort is warranted if not necessary This is illuminating. For me I can categorically state that, when criticising a political position my intention would not be cause discomfort. If that is what your primary intention is in such situations then I can see why you would ascribe similar motivations to others, you are however, wrong. Is that really how your discussions pan out? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/275 "2019-02-06T21:57:47Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > then when people criticize you for wearing blackface, then you should start from the assumption that no malice is intended and work from there. correct, that’s exactly the approach I would take. ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/276 "2019-02-06T21:58:10Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > It isn’t a game. You use an imprecise term and refuse to define it. > > Well you haven’t defined it in any meaningful way. > > And what exactly is it that you think I have issues with? It is perfectly possible for someone to change their skin tone with racist and malicious intent and when that happens it should be condemned. I simply don’t join in with your blanket accusation of racism in all circumstances. It matters how it is done and why it is done. Truly, if intent doesn’t matter then all human interactions are screwed. > > I suspect that many people would use the term “blackface” in a much more narrow manner. i.e. merely making your skin darker (and there can a variety of reasons for doing so) would not be “blackface” for them, I don’t think you get to choose their definition for them. > > Just so I’m clear, _any form_ You didn’t respond to the video I posted, do you think that is unacceptable? > > I don’t believe you. I challenge you on that. I think you would treat people differently based on their intent if they were to explain it to you. > > I think that is a bleak and negative approach to life but then I’m not from the USA so maybe you think that is the best path forward for your specific situation. If you’re not playing a game then why are we back here discussing this same semantic bullshit? If my working definition of white culture doesn’t satisfy you then I fail to see how this is my problem. Once again, the ONLY person in this thread who can not grasp my meaning of white culture is you. Perhaps you should try asking others for further clarification since mine doesn’t seem to satisfy your requirements. You choose to focus solely on intent and I choose to focus on outcome. If someone slams into the back of my car I don’t give a shit if they intended to stop. I care that I just got hit and now I need to start dealing with the aftermath of a situation I didn’t create. And after a lifetime of wreck after wreck I don’t really give a damn why people keep causing these problems, I just want them to stop. I’m not choosing other people’s definition of blackface or racism. I’m refusing to allow people like YOU to choose MY definition of blackface and racism. You and yours are free to do whatever you want. And you’re damn right my approach is bleak and negative. Have you ever stopped to wonder exactly what type of bullshit I must have had to deal with to get to such a place? I’m quite simply sick and tired of being sick and tired and there is no end in sight. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/277 "2019-02-06T21:59:53Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > No. you didn’t watch it? or don’t think there is benign intent? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/278 "2019-02-06T22:07:13Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > This is illuminating. For me I can categorically state that, when criticising a political position my intention would not be cause discomfort. But are you aware that it might? I do not criticize trump for the purpose of causing discomfort to his supporters, but I am aware that it may, and I am okay with that. Same with blackface. You may not wear it to cause discomfort to minorities, but you should be aware that it may, and by wearing it, you are saying that you are okay with that. > [@](#): > > If that is what your primary intention is in such situations then I can see why you would ascribe similar motivations to others, you are however, wrong. No one has ever changed their mind while being comforted by what they already believe. If you are trying to get someone to change their mind, then you are going to be challenging their beliefs, their ideals, and their perspectives. Having that challenged is not comfortable. You erroneously claim that the poster said it was their “primary intention”, which is not what the poster said at all. What they said is that there must be a part that is intended to offend. Now, case in point, in correcting your error there, I probably made you feel a bit uncomfortable, which was part of the intent, in that you should feel uncomfortable when you make errors like that, that discomfort will help you to avoid such in the future. > [@](#): > > Is that really how your discussions pan out? I doubt it, it seems you took the entirely wrong message from the post, and turned it into a passive aggressive attack on the poster. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/279 "2019-02-06T22:07:45Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > If you’re not playing a game then why are we back here discussing this same semantic bullshit? If my working definition of white culture doesn’t satisfy you then I fail to see how this is my problem. you haven’t defined it > [@](#): > > Once again, the ONLY person in this thread who can not grasp my meaning of white culture is you. Perhaps you should try asking others for further clarification since mine doesn’t seem to satisfy your requirements. is it defined anywhere in the thread? I’m happy to be be wrong. Point me to it. > [@](#): > > You choose to focus solely on intent and I choose to focus on outcome. If someone slams into the back of my car I don’t give a shit if they intended to stop. You should give a shit, the law certainly does. The person in the car that hit you had a stroke, Still don’t give a shit? their brakes failed, still don’t give a shit? a wasp flew in the window and stung them in the eye (a real incident I saw), still don’t give a shit? > [@](#): > > I’m not choosing other people’s definition of blackface or racism. I’m refusing to allow people like YOU to choose MY definition of blackface and racism. I’ve never told what you definition to use, I am however criticising you when you are using your own, very wide and comprehensive definition of “blackface” to include every single instance of skin darkening and accusing it of racism and malicious intent. I think that is an unhelpful way to react. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/280 "2019-02-06T22:18:22Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > But are you aware that it might? I am aware that every action or word or belief or opinion I mave have, do or say can cause offence. > [@](#): > > You erroneously claim that the poster said it was their “primary intention”, which is not what the poster said at all. What they said is that there must be a part that is intended to offend. No, I’m very careful with my words, If I misspoke I’d have no problem correcting it and have done so on many occasions but what I actually said was > [@](#): > > If that is what your primary intention is in such situations then I can see why you would ascribe similar motivations to others Which is subtly different is it not? It is certainly not me claiming that they said it was their “primary intention” > [@](#): > > Now, case in point, in correcting your error there, I probably made you feel a bit uncomfortable, which was part of the intent, in that you should feel uncomfortable when you make errors like that, that discomfort will help you to avoid such in the future. No, no discomfort at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848.md?page=15)