# What exactly qualifies as blackface? What forms are offensive and why? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 2, 2019, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848 "2019-02-02T18:34:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/81 "2019-02-03T19:19:27Z")
Seriously, everyone who truly believes that Lucille Ball’s hair color was 100% natural, raise your hand. Yeah, didn’t think so. Hair is changeable, it can by dyed and cut and styled and wigs can go over it and none of it is INNATE. Skin color is innate so it’s off limits. And again, I say you don’t get to use skin color as a defining characteristic while cosplaying if you are cosplaying a natural human with that human’s natural skin tone. Cosplaying Frankenstein’s monster as green is fine because that is a FICTIONAL CHARACTER with a defining characteristic of skin that is not in any way a natural human tone. Same with cosplaying the Wicked Witch of the West–green is fine. Cosplaying a vampire and wearing dead white makeup is fine, because they are FICTIONAL CHARACTERS with a defining characteristic of a skin tone that is in no way a natural human tone. Cosplay a zombie all gray and manky, likewise fine. Nobody’d know you were a Smurf if you weren’t bright blue, that’s A-OK. Devils are bright red, not a problem. Japanese oni can be red or blue or green, all fine. As **monstro** keeps saying–a person’s skin tone is not a goddamned costume so don’t change yours to match another person. That’s not going to go well for you. Likewise, don’t go cosplaying an Asian person and try to give yourself slant eyes, that’s rude. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/82 "2019-02-03T19:22:03Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I don’t know Abigal Adam’s eye color. But I do have an idea of how she styled her hair and dressed. > > Without looking at her portrait, do you know her eye color? > > Do you think that you’d have to get this little detail exactly right in order to have a convince Abigal Adams costume? I don’t know who that is off the top of my head so… I could tell you Cindy Crawford’s I think the majority of people could tell you whether a person is black or white though. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/83 "2019-02-03T19:31:15Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Someone who dresses up like Harriet Tubman isn’t trying to appeal to people like you. They are trying to appeal to other fangirls and fanboys of Harriet Tubman–folks who would be able to recognize her costume from a million miles away. I actually found [a little white Harriet Tubman](https://youtube.com/watch?v=TC2TXQFPSn4)! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/84 "2019-02-03T19:32:12Z")
All of those folks saying “But other than the history, why is it offensive?”: Why “other than the history”? Isn’t that enough of a reason? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/85 "2019-02-03T19:33:14Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > It’s not “hard to get”. But I think your implication that there’s some obvious _theoretical_ (ahistorical) reason for why it’s different from other aspects of appearance it’s weak. The compelling reason that there is great sensitivity about changing aspects of appearance that correlate to race (most notably skin color) is historical & social context - because of our terrible history of racism. And I’m not talking about this “great sensitivity”. I have just been giving _my personal opinion_, not providing a scholarly dissertation. It it just my _personal opinion_ that it is stupid to equate real people’s skin coloring to an element of costume, regardless of context. I think this would be kinda stupid even if we didn’t have a history of racism or blackface. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/86 "2019-02-03T19:34:50Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I actually found [a little white Harriet Tubman](https://youtube.com/watch?v=TC2TXQFPSn4)! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/87 "2019-02-03T19:35:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Who do you offend by painting someone green? I think you are conflating two things. The prior exchange was (paraphrasing): Poster 1: You cannot wear dark makeup because it is offensive to blacks. Poster 2: Then that means that white kids must only portray white characters and blacks can only portray black character. Poster 1: No, because skin color is not important to portraying a character. Poster 2 (to which you responded): Then why is it important to paint yourself green when playing Frankenstein if skin color is not important? A fair answer could be that since nobody has green skin, that is sufficiently unusual to be a defining characteristic of Frankenstein such that it helps the costume. But, IMHO, dressing in a character by definition means to change your appearance so that it looks like the character you are attempting to portray. If you have white or black skin and you want to be Frankenstein, you change your skin color to green. It seems a bit far to say that because at one time white actors used exaggerated makeup to play the stereotypical role of ignorant dancing minstrel blacks for the purposes of being deliberately offensive, now all makeup to look black must be shunned. What else will we extend that to? As slavery was a horrible relic of history should no black man ever be in the employ of a white man because, even though he is getting paid, it is still a white man bossing around a black man so we need to steer clear? I also again have the problem of who is setting the rules, who is actually offended and who is “offended” because that is what they are told to feel in modern society? Like when Gov. Northram said that he told his black campaign manager about his Michael Jackson costume and was told it was offensive and now he realizes it was offensive. Was there an election that appointed Gov. Northram’s campaign manager the spokesman for black people? What if his campaign manager had said that he did not find it offensive? He and his campaign manager would have been mocked: “Ha, so his Uncle Tom friend told him is was okay, so he thinks it is! Ha ha ha!” So just to get up to speed on things, let’s say I am at a gathering and playing Samuel L. Jackson’s character in Pulp Fiction. Is it okay that I wear: 1) the suit, 2) the gun, 3) the jerry curl??, 4) use the profanity, 5) mock the violence and absolutely everything else, but dark makeup is too far? I take the point that I won’t look like Samuel L. Jackson anyways; I will look like a middle aged white guy trying to play Samuel L. Jackson. But that is part of what makes character dressing at these parties funny. When a five year old dresses up like Superman you don’t complain that he is far too short to be Superman and that he can’t fly. Likewise, the character is a joke and the attempt to be authentic is what is funny. But I can do everything except the dark makeup. Now, some of you might throw a shot back at me saying something like “Being black isn’t funny or something to be mocked.” But in this case nobody is mocking black people; nobody is mocking Samuel L. Jackson. I am making fun of myself by pretending that I am a black character. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/88 "2019-02-03T19:39:17Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > Seriously, everyone who truly believes that Lucille Ball’s hair color was 100% natural, raise your hand. Yeah, didn’t think so. Hair is changeable, it can by dyed and cut and styled and wigs can go over it and none of it is INNATE. Skin color is innate so it’s off limits. Unless you are cosplaying as KISS, in which case, skin color becomes a chosen style. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/89 "2019-02-03T19:42:20Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > And again, I say you don’t get to use skin color as a defining characteristic while cosplaying if you are cosplaying a natural human with that human’s natural skin tone. Cosplay is about trying to match what a character looks like. I’m not going to try to defend blackface, but saying that what someone looks like isn’t part of what someone looks like is silly. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/90 "2019-02-03T19:42:30Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Now, some of you might throw a shot back at me saying something like “Being black isn’t funny or something to be mocked.” But in this case nobody is mocking black people; nobody is mocking Samuel L. Jackson. I am making fun of myself by pretending that I am a black character. So putting on blackface is a means of mockery then? And you don’t see why this is a problem? > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Unless you are cosplaying as KISS, in which case, skin color becomes a chosen style. Yup, that skin color is not innate so it’s fair game. Now if they actually had those complexions from the womb then it wouldn’t be okay to cosplay them. Also, can you imagine the consternation in the delivery room? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/91 "2019-02-03T19:46:42Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > All of those folks saying “But other than the history, why is it offensive?”: Why “other than the history”? Isn’t that enough of a reason? Yes - the compelling reason is historical and social context, our terrible behavior in the past. But people seem to want to _try_ to explain it ahistorically. And I think trying to construct some perfectly consistent ahistorical framework is counterproductive. It doesn’t work well, it gets us bogged down in irrelevant debates over exactly what’s innate and what’s not, it _invites_ nitpickers to say - well, if that’s the reason, it seems inconsistent and doesn’t make sense. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/92 "2019-02-03T19:51:15Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > I don’t know who that is off the top of my head so… > I could tell you Cindy Crawford’s I think Cindy Crawford is more recognizable by her mole than her eye color. Her mole is always the first thing I think of when I think of Cindy Crawford. :shrug: > [@](#): > > I think the majority of people could tell you whether a person is black or white though. When you look at the president, do you think “white guy”? Or do you think “Trump”? I know that when I think of Michael Jordan, I don’t think “black guy”. I think “MJ”. I haven’t talked to MJ about this, but I suspect MJ would rather be thought of as “MJ”, not “black guy”. I don’t think white people look at another white person and say to themselves, “Hey! A white guy/woman! Look at all the whiteness!” No, they look at the things about that person that have nothing to do with their skin coloring, since their skin coloring isn’t remarkable. That’s how black people want to be seen too. Is that so hard to understand? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/93 "2019-02-03T19:53:12Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > So putting on blackface is a means of mockery then? And you don’t see why this is a problem? 1. I said nothing about blackface. 2. The mockery is not the skin color. It is my attempt at trying to look like another person that I do not look like. It would be equally funny if I tried to look like a white guy that I look nothing like. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/94 "2019-02-03T19:55:28Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > When you look at the president, do you think “white guy”? Or do you think “Trump”? I don’t know about anyone else but I definitely think “orange”. A proper fancy dress for Trump would need coloured skin and ridiculous hair. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/95 "2019-02-03T19:59:22Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I don’t know about anyone else but I definitely think “orange”. A proper fancy dress for Trump would need coloured skin and ridiculous hair. Which would be fair game as both of those items are things he’s chosen to do to change his appearance and are not innate, just as his incompetently overlong ties are a choice and would therefore be a legit part of the costume. Padding out to match his huge fat ass might be skirting the bounds of okayness though. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/96 "2019-02-03T20:00:35Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Cosplay is about trying to match what a character looks like. I’m not going to try to defend blackface, but saying that what someone looks like isn’t part of what someone looks like is silly. I am curious if you think this [lady](https://nomorerace.wordpress.com/2013/02/13/how-dare-a-black-cosplayer-take-on-a-white-character/) or this [guy](https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=OUdXXL2CNZGxgge9s5-ICw&q=black+cosplay+white+characters&oq=black+cosplay+white+characters&gs_l=img.3...18993.22557..22685...0.0..0.124.1555.17j2......1....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i7i30j0j0i5i30j0i8i30.Q5hzZWaUvtI#imgrc=jrmCNB9xVHFGjM:) have missed the point of cosplay. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/97 "2019-02-03T20:03:28Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I don’t know about anyone else but I definitely think “orange”. A proper fancy dress for Trump would need coloured skin and ridiculous hair. I agree with this. But if he didn’t have orange skin, I wouldn’t go there with whiteface. Cuz I’m thinking the hair + a baggy suit + a long red tie would be more than enough to nail his look. Anything more would probably detract from the costume rather than enhance it. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/98 "2019-02-03T20:21:33Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I am curious if you think this [lady](https://nomorerace.wordpress.com/2013/02/13/how-dare-a-black-cosplayer-take-on-a-white-character/) or this [guy](https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=OUdXXL2CNZGxgge9s5-ICw&q=black+cosplay+white+characters&oq=black+cosplay+white+characters&gs_l=img.3...18993.22557..22685...0.0..0.124.1555.17j2......1....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i7i30j0j0i5i30j0i8i30.Q5hzZWaUvtI#imgrc=jrmCNB9xVHFGjM:) have missed the point of cosplay. I would say that it is the difference between verisimilitude and somewhatsimilitude. The more the person looks like the person they are portraying, the more accurate the cosplay. And the less the person looks like the person they are potraying the less accurate the cosplay. For instance, If I was doing _Supernatural_ cosplay, I’d make a much better [Bobby](https://www.google.com/search?q=Supernatural+bobby&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjCjvDisKDgAhXs5oMKHZwjAdYQ_AUIBigB&biw=376&bih=589#spf=1549224986056) than I would [Garth](https://www.google.com/search?q=Supernatural+garth&biw=376&bih=589&tbm=isch&oq=Supernatural+garth&gs_l=mobile-heirloom-serp.3...77035.78602.0.79167.6.6.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c.1.34.mobile-heirloom-serp..6.0.0.n-btZfeGVDs) (or [Billie](https://www.google.com/search?q=Supernatural+billie&biw=376&bih=589&tbm=isch&oq=Supernatural+billie&gs_l=mobile-heirloom-serp.3..0l3j0i8i30l2.41475.44596.0.46857.11.11.0.0.0.0.1003.6106.0j1j2j2j0j1j4j1.11.0....0...1c.1.34.mobile-heirloom-serp..7.4.1701.is-88fyupx0).) There is a difference between “ha, ha, that’s funny” inaccurate cosplay and cosplay where you almost ask them for their autograph. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/99 "2019-02-03T21:07:52Z")
Logic or consistency has no place among those who want to use weaponized language as a social bludgeon. Why do you think ridiculous concepts like digital blackface and cultural appropriation for cooking a taco make global news? ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/100 "2019-02-03T21:15:57Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > All of those folks saying “But other than the history, why is it offensive?”: Why “other than the history”? Isn’t that enough of a reason? Its enough, noones trying to deny it’s offensive but I am interested I the exact reasoning so I for one am interested in any opinions that expand on it. Clearly those expansions fall into more subjective territory. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848.md?page=6)